Beyoncé's 'Cowboy Carter' Revolution (Guest: Mike 'Big Mike' Bryant)

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

*DISCLAIMER: Transcripts are created using AI, and may not accurately represent the content exactly as presented. Transcripts are provided as a courtesy to our listeners who require them.

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[00:00:00] How to Support Queue Points
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Jay Ray: Hey, what's up? Good people. It's Jay Ray, the co host of Queue Points. And I wanted to come to you because there are two really important ways that you can support our show. One is by subscribing to it, wherever you listen to, or watch your podcast. Queue Points is pretty much everywhere. The other thing that you can do is you can visit us on Apple podcasts.

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We're always appreciative of you supporting Queue Points. We thank you so much for all that you've done for us so far and enjoy the show.

[00:00:50] Intro Theme (Music by Danya Vodovoz)
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[00:01:21] Welcome to Queue Points Podcast!
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DJ Sir Daniel: Greetings and welcome back to another episode of Queue Points podcast. I am DJ Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III what's happening people.

DJ Sir Daniel: Listen up here, y'all gather round to this here podcast because we were about to have an amazing show. 

[00:01:42] Recapping a Live Recording Experience in Atlanta
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DJ Sir Daniel: J. Ray, first of all, I got to say it was a treat to see you in person, um, during our live recording here in Atlanta. We had an amazing time. Thank you so much for doing everything that you do for making it just an amazing, amazing experience and podcast, especially for our guests and for the people who came by and listened to and watched us live at JB's Record Lounge.

Jay Ray: Yeah, man. Um, I am grateful as well. It was good to see you. It was good to see all of the folks. I was telling our guests as we were, uh, back in the green room that every show is really cool because we always introduce the show to new people. And so the majority of the folks that came this time were new to Queue Points and hadn't heard the show before and were really like tuned into the conversation that we were having.

So I want to say thank you to you too because not only Were we just like, I love the, the, the way that we're able to work together to make it happen. Cause we had a whole moment y'all where I could not figure out how to make something work. I was stressed. I couldn't get the camera going. It was a lot, but we made it happen.

In addition, you, sir, Daniel, listen, gave the kids life. At super bad and erotic on Saturday over at JB's as well. Um, so that was a good time and I want to take a second to thank JB for just welcoming us in and allowing us to do Queue Points in that space because that's a super special invite.

DJ Sir Daniel: it absolutely is. And we're literally treated like it's home when we go there. We're treated like, um, family. And I continue to wish JB all the success in the world. And, um, again, thank you to everybody who came out and check this out live here in Atlanta, but J Ray. Before we get into this fantastic show and this particular episode, I know the kids are going to be waiting to hear what we have to say about this, but I'm also super excited because one of our cousins is back.

One of our family members is back in, in the house. He's joining us after, it feels like a couple years now since We did our country music series, but Big Mike is back. I can't wait to talk to him. 

[00:04:08] How to Stay Connected with Queue Points
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DJ Sir Daniel: But Jerry, before we bring him on, please let the folks that are watching right now, listening right now, let them know how they can keep up with Queue Points and all the wonderful things that we're up to.

Jay Ray: absolutely. So of course, all of y'all heard at the top of the show, we definitely encourage you to subscribe, leave reviews wherever you can. So if you're listening to this show or you've listened to other shows and you haven't left a review on Apple podcasts on pod chaser or on Spotify, you should definitely go ahead and do that.

Also, we have a new feature on our website at Queue Points. com where you can leave a review as well. So if you visit us at Queue Points. com, you could do all the stuff over there. We have, uh, transcripts of the show. Um, we have playlists, so we on, but we have our playlist coordinator. Shout out to Sonny B who is, who has joined the Queue Points family and is our playlist curator.

So Sonny B is getting up to speed. So if you go check out the Salt N Pepa show, you can also listen to the playlist. So that's first and foremost, but if you're hearing our voice, subscribe. Share it with your friends and family. If you like Queue Points, they will like Queue Points too. Y'all can go a step further.

Visit us at magazine. Queue Points. com. We cover a lot on Queue Points, but we don't cover nearly as much as we actually talk about behind the scenes and getting ready for a show. So if you want a little bit extra. If you want to join over on Queue Points Mag, that's where you can get more opportunities as well to kind of stay connected to Queue Points.

And last but not least, you see these dope buttons that I have here, right? So these are in our store. So if you visit us at store. Queue Points. com, you can not only buy merch, uh, including our Slow Jams Can Heal Us merch, which is out now, you can also pick up some buttons and a mug. I normally have a mug somewhere, but I've drank all my coffee today.

A mug bags the whole nine. So do all of that stuff. Support your boys. We love you. We're happy you're here.

DJ Sir Daniel: Absolutely. And you know what? They would want to support us because J Ray, I'm going to say something that might be controversial. I don't hear Queue Points podcast. Not only do we drop the needle on black music history, we are also visionaries. 

[00:06:26] Recalling Queue Points' Black Country Music Series and Welcome Guest Big Mike
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DJ Sir Daniel: Two years ago. No, seriously, two years ago, we set out on an adventure with our guest to produce a podcast.

for listening. Um, was it, uh, how many, how many episodes was it a

Jay Ray: Four episodes.

DJ Sir Daniel: four episode series on black artists in country music two years ago?

Jay Ray: Yep. Yeah.

DJ Sir Daniel: after, um, Beyonce dropped Cowboy Carter act two, which is And I, and I'm, I'm going to say what she said. She said, it's not a country album.

It's a Beyonce album, which I think is a very important point to make. But, um, yeah, let's just talk about it. Cowboy Carter is, um, is here. And of course it's not without his controversy and it's not without his praise, but what it doesn't have is it doesn't have yet the Queue Points stamp of approval. And so we're here to talk about it and we cannot do that without our good friend.

And Jerry, why don't you do the, um, the honors of introducing our guests and friends to the show?

Jay Ray: Yes. Um, so I want to do this while our guest is on the show. So I'm going to big, I'm going to bring our brother, big Mike. Up what's happening

DJ Sir Daniel: What's up, Big

Big Mike: What's happening, guys? Oh,

Jay Ray: Welcome back. I I wanted to bring you up because I am about to i'm about to big up big mike. All right, so um

DJ Sir Daniel: Let's do it properly.

Jay Ray: Right, you know what i'm saying? So 2022 Um, I made my uh, I think it was my second trek to la My first trek to LA, I think, and to the podcast movement. So Queue Points, um, we had a session at podcast movement, um, called building the world you want, um, which was about being independent podcasters and, you know, building our platform.

So we have a home. Well, Went to BIPOC Podcast Creators event and Big Mike was there, right? So we're at this bar. Big Mike is there and and Crystal Hill is there. We're all chatting. We're in a group. We're chatting and I'm getting to know Big Mike and Big Mike is like, well, I was like a DJ on country radio and I was like, oh, well, hey.

Hey, you know, cause Sir Daniel and I have been talking about doing something country related, right? And so I want to. Do two things. Um, because since that time, Big Mike is an award winning podcast producer. So let's just keep it, uh, keep it a whole bean. Okay. Thank you for your expertise. Thank you for sprinkling yo sauce on Queue Points because that series that we did is what we submitted to get our Ambien nomination.

Big Mike: the nomination, guys. That was awesome. I'm glad I could be a part of that.

Jay Ray: yes, man. So I wanted to do that properly and say, thank you. Welcome back. Big Mike, what's going on? How are you? Tell us what's up in your world,

Big Mike: It does feel like years since the last time we've all like had a conversation and it's good to be back. I appreciate you guys reaching out to me. Uh, about, about this album that's kind of set the whole world, not just the country world, like the whole music world on fire. So I, I had been, me and me and my wife had been talking about it, Lucy, and, uh, and then J Ray texted and there, it was like divine intervention.

I was like, Oh, I'm gonna have an opportunity to talk about this to somebody else. Other than Lucy, uh, so it's, it's good to be back. Uh, definitely a little bit heavier with a couple of awards, which is very surreal to me. When I set out to, uh, podcast like over 10 years ago, being in a, uh, an award winning producer was definitely not something that I even fathomed.

So to be here and get it, it's humbling. Um, because I, I feel like just like other podcasters, we all work hard, right? Work hard for little payoff for the love of doing this and just putting your thoughts and ideas and feelings out into the world. So you can connect with other people. It's a beautiful thing.

And so, uh, podcasting has brought me a lot. Um, Because I had such a love for radio. I did. And then I realized podcasting brought, it brought me so much more. So I am truly appreciative. Uh, I I'm humbled and, uh, I truly appreciate you two gentlemen, because that series, that country series that you guys, we, we collaborated on, uh, was probably, it's probably one of those crown jewels to me, um, for, for multiple reasons, just for that little black kid who grew up and, you know, felt like he was an other in, in, in, in the world.

So, uh, I, I am truly, truly grateful for that opportunity and I'm glad to be back talking with you fellas.

DJ Sir Daniel: Absolutely. Before we move on, Mike, please let the people know the, um, the name of the podcast that you, that you worked on and that you received an award for. Please let them know.

Big Mike: So I, uh, I currently, uh, work on along with my, uh, producing partner and she used to be my boss. Her name's Crystal Hill. She's like a legend in the podcast game. Like

Jay Ray: is.

Big Mike: she's, she's, she's like a superstar and, uh, she's, she's a great mentor. And, uh, the podcast that we're working on, um, with Lisa Woolfolk of Stitch, please.

She just recently run and won an Ambi. So, um, she's put in a whole heck of a lot of work to win that Ambi. So shout out to Lisa. And, um, for allowing me and crystal to, uh, help propel her, um, forward. So, uh, it's been, it's been awesome. So

DJ Sir Daniel: That's amazing. We love to see the home team win. Anytime one of us wins, it's a win for all of us. So definitely, um, congratulations on that, but you know, without further ado, let's, let's get into it. 

[00:12:49] Diving into Beyoncé's 'Act II: Cowboy Carter'
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DJ Sir Daniel: Let's crack open this bad boy. So cowboy Carter act two of the follow up to Renaissance, of course, which was act one Renaissance, of course, um, delve deep into the, the dance.

music era, it tapped into different eras of that dance music, specifically disco and house, definitely tapped into the ballroom culture. So we had a lot of sub genres being celebrated in that album. And then of course, in true Beyonce fashion, she, you know, she, she toured. Uh, she, um, You know, blew everybody's minds with the tour and then went away and was like, okay, guys, peace.

I'll see y'all next time. Tom, you know, and, but then in true Beyonce fashion. Oh, well, I may as well tell y'all that here's act two, just, just get yourselves ready. I gave y'all a little breathing time. Here's act two. She announced it during the super bowl with a commercial. And ever since then, people were like, Oh, this is.

You know, it's going to be country because we heard, we hear, uh, Rhiannon getting

Jay Ray: Mm hmm.

DJ Sir Daniel: predominantly prominently, excuse me, on the, um, the lead single Texas hold them.

Jay Ray: Mm hmm.

DJ Sir Daniel: And then, you know, in, in true Beyonce fashion, the controversy starts. So let's get into it. So let, so let's start, start off with impressions.

[00:14:18] First Impressions of Cowboy Carter
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DJ Sir Daniel: Has everybody had a chance to listen to it? And if you have, what are your first impressions of the album?

Jay Ray: you know, I'll jump in. Um, I'm dying to Mike. I'm dying to hear your thoughts. So I'm just going to jump in now. I have listened to Cowboy Carter and I will say a couple of things. I was going to talk about this, but this is probably going to come up now. Um, one. I was surprised at, um, how intimate, how experimental and intimate it sounded at the same time.

Um, I will say upon first listened, I enjoyed the record. So all of you should know this. You might know this by now, but when I listen to music, it's about how it feels first. And then I try and go back and like analyze what's actually happening. Like what do I like about it? So, um, upon my first listen, um, Um, I was like, Oh, I'm really, this feels good to me.

So like the record. Um, when I dive in deeper, I love all of the, um, nuances in the album. Um, the interludes crack me up. You have Willie Nelson on interludes, which I think is the coolest thing ever, as well as like Dolly Parton's sprinkled throughout. Um, so there's all of these callbacks to like, country traditionalism through a black lens.

Like this is like a black album. And even from a country standpoint, when I think of like country artists, I'm like, Oh, this is the blackest country album and the most, um, I hate the word urban, but I can't think of another word to use,

Big Mike: I hate that word too.

Jay Ray: I hate that word. Oh my God. I really hate that word, but y'all get where I'm going.

Like, I felt like. It took all of the sensibilities of hip hop and R& B and put it into a country album, um, that feels both country and all of these other things. So saying all that to say, um, I enjoy Cowboy Carter. Is it my favorite Beyonce record? No. Um, but it is an enjoyable record and I can see why she says it's a Beyonce album and not a country album.

Cause it does feel like a Beyonce album. So that's, that's me.

DJ Sir Daniel: Okay, go ahead, Mike.

Big Mike: Uh, upon first listen, I could definitely, I agree with that statement or her saying that it's a Beyonce album because it sounds like a Beyonce album to me. Uh, but I do love the, um, The little nuances, like back in the original, our original country series, I said that, uh, we have a way of innovating in a space and the album feels like it's pushing a genre for like a genre forward.

Right. And, um, because I mean, we're going to talk about, we can talk about that, but like, it, it also is, it kind of goes, well, if Beyonce's doing it, Everybody else, it kind of just, it's kind of like what she did. And I don't want to compare it to Charlie pride, but it kind of opens that door that if someone of that caliber of Beyonce is going to step in and do country.

Right. And everyone thought it was a joke when she mentioned it. I think she mentioned it in like an interview or something like that. And everybody thought it was funny, Beyonce and country. What is it going to sound like? Right. And, um, just upon listening to it, you can tell that. She really went out of her way to make, she hits up these OG people that have been in, been in the country game for a long time because she understood, she understands that she's stepping into country.

She's been in R and B, she's been in pop, right? This is another genre, genre that she's stepping in to and country is, can be controversial,

Jay Ray: Yes! Y

Big Mike: you look like us. It becomes immediately controversial,

DJ Sir Daniel: Yes, indeed.

Big Mike: is why the series, our series that we created two years ago is so important because I ever, that series, I say it's found we're foundational to country music and by her entering country music and putting out a quote unquote country album, right?

She's saying, Hey, this is our music too. And if I can do country there, others can do country too. Not that there weren't people in that space already. Right. But a, a caliber of Beyonce, someone who tours the world. Over and over and over again loved by millions of people, right? And so I think she kind of goes, Hey, look at this genre.

Look at these young black people in this genre. I may be, may have put out this album, but don't just because I did it. Don't leave the genre because I left the genre and went to go do another album. Stay right here and enjoy these people that have been putting in the work. And I hope that's what she thought about when she created this album, but I feel that as well.

Right. There's a, there's a, there's a track with, uh, Tanner Adele

Jay Ray: Yup.

Big Mike: on there. Right. And she's put out stuff like back road. And I just listened to buckle bunny and I'm like, this is not, this sounds country, but this does not sound. Like traditional country. So I, I didn't mean to go long winded, but it, it surprised me to listen to it and just listen to all these influences and it still be Beyonce.

I think that's the thing is that it's still Beyonce. It doesn't feel like she's trying to, to perpetrate something else. She's just like, Hey, I'm going to innovate in my space. I'm going to keep it my, my vibe. And, um, I'm, and I'm going to sprinkle in these country, these country roots. Cause she's from Houston.

So she's, it's not right. She's from Texas. So it's, I partly, I think it's funny that there's so much controversy around it.

DJ Sir Daniel: Right. And see, we're good. And we'll, we'll get into that. So I'll quickly share my thoughts upon listening to the album. So I, so like everybody else, I was intrigued, um, and it, it didn't surprise me because I was like, Beyonce is going to do Beyonce. And what, because she keeps. Her, um, her immediate circle.

Like she keeps the dream on hand, serious, the dream. She keeps him nearby,

Jay Ray: Raphael Sadiq.

DJ Sir Daniel: Rafael Sadiq and, um, Swiss beats, people that she's worked with before people that she's, she feels comfortable with. So if they're there, she's going to feel comfortable. She's going to be in her pocket no matter what she does.

Um, It's, it's clean. It's, it's, uh, it, it sounds good. When I say sounds good, I'm talking about from a technical aspect, like you can hear, you hear things and it seems like you can hear something new every time that you listen to it. Um, chock full of, it's, it's a lot more, um, interludes than what I'm used to, but like you said, it was funny.

I love her nod to radio.

Jay Ray: Yes.

DJ Sir Daniel: Because there's a nod to radio as well. So the other three of us in here can, um, appreciate that. And like you said, she's setting up the, the girls, the people that are in the black young people that are doing country music now, she kind of said, Hey, Hey guys, I'm doing this. I need you to hop on this platform because once I do this, I'm handing the baton off to you, just like Mike said, and you all are going to run, run when you get this opportunity.

And, um, I love that. I already have a favorite that I can't wait to talk about, but what I love most about this album, it's, I think Danielle Smith said this on, um, Jonathan Capehart, she said, this is an Americana album. And it's so true because not only do you hear, um, do you hear Texas, but this California soul all up and through there, there's Louisiana, of course.

Uh, Alabama, this, all the stuff that's east of the Mississippi, you hear all of those different things. So it is an, uh, a shining example of how you do country the Beyonce way and make it modern. And so. I, you know, I've never bought a Beyonce album like immediately, and this is the first time that I've done it.

I, somebody, when the digital dropped, when the self title came out, somebody gave it to me. So that doesn't count, but I purchased this album because one, I knew we were going to talk about it, but I was also very curious like everybody else. And so here we are. As Mike alluded to the fact that we knew it was coming.

There are articles now, this is not, this is not country. Um, what Beyonce is doing is bastardizing country music. I read a review where somebody literally said, I, please keep country pure, pure.

Jay Ray: We, we see you,

DJ Sir Daniel: We see, we know what pure, we know what that means. Keep country pure because, and people are attaching country music, not only to the people that. are known to perform it, but they're also aligning it with values and political viewpoints as well. And so that's where we're getting a lot of the pushback from, but you know, I just want to throw that out there for everybody.

What are, I know this is a dumb question, but are we surprised at the pushback? Are we surprised that the dog whistling that has been, that we've been hearing since this album has dropped?

Big Mike: No, not at all. Not at all.

Jay Ray: know, Mike, I'm curious to, from coming from One being a lifelong country fan and coming from country radio. This has been throwing people into a tizzy, right? Around, you know, traditional country stations. Like, do we play the Beyonce? Do we not play the Beyonce? Like, what do we do with it? Worry about this.

DJ Sir Daniel: the Cadillac records, tell them

Jay Ray: So, Sir Daniel, this is hilarious. So Sir Daniel just sent me a tweet today. Mike, I don't know if you've seen this. Where the one country station, uh, so a traditional country artist decided to make Texas Hold'em again. And they're playing that. They're not playing Beyonce's Texas Hold'em. They're playing this other version, this non black version of Texas Hold'em that Beyonce didn't do on this radio station.

We will pull that tweet y'all. This is not a joke. This is real.

DJ Sir Daniel: the quiet part out loud. They are saying the quiet part out loud for real.

Big Mike: That's wild. Why? There's, I mean, you have the original, like, why not just play the original? Like, I don't,

DJ Sir Daniel: It's too black and it's too female.

Jay Ray: Ooh. So. 

[00:25:51] The Politics of Country Radio and Black Artists
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Jay Ray: Mike, that part, can we talk a bit about, from your perspective, right? School us a bit about the politics of country radio from your vantage point. Not of course, naming any names and why it's hard for black country artists to end up on country radio. Right.

Big Mike: it's hard because you're, you're, you're in a place that there's nobody reflecting you back to you. Right. One of the reasons I got into radio and specifically country music in radio is one, I loved country music. There I thought about a guy named Jimmy Allen, right and I thought about a guy named Darius Rucker who kind of crossed that line Right.

And really cemented his feet in the country genre. And I, I can imagine them just walking into rooms and interviews with people that don't look like them who don't understand their experience, who, who, who doesn't understand what it is to move through this world as a black man, as a black person, as a black woman.

And I wanted to be that I wanted to be that person and, and to not just be that person because I'm going to be some token it's because I actually love the genre. And I enjoy country music. And so I felt like they needed to be interviewed by people who had that love, who want to be in the space. And, um, but it's hard to be in that space, right?

Like I was at a radio station and, um, now that I have some, I have a little bit of, uh, distance and, and have a little bit more of a vantage point of my experience, I realized that I don't think they were ever going to let me off weekend. I think that was never the plan, right? Because how can you let this Black guy represent This country station, right?

And, and, and I believe that, uh, people like, um, uh, one of my, the people I knew in DC, her name's Ty she's on air. I think she saw past that, right? She was the one that gave me my first opportunity to be an apprenticeship on air, and I think she saw that. And I saw another guy, his name's Brian Mo and he saw past that too.

Uh, but I think eventually. Right? The program director can only do so much. It's gotta be approved by other people above the program director. And they're in, they're about project, projecting an image. And country isn't black. Right? By their standards, country isn't black. Country is white. So, uh, it's why we continue to not to see a lot of black radio DJs in the space.

Because, uh, Um, you get outrage, like, you know, people being upset about Beyonce being in the space, and so it's tough to, to navigate that and to continue to go, well, how is, how can I not take this personal, right? I think I'm as good or better than some of the people that are on air. Why am I not getting those same opportunities to move forward and all of those things?

So it's a tough, it's a tough genre to be in because there's so much behind it. You like, I like in, I like in country almost to NASCAR, right?

Jay Ray: Mm

Big Mike: Bubble Wallace, I've gotten into NASCAR recently. Me and my wife have gotten into NASCAR. We watched, uh, Bubble Wallace's documentary on Netflix, um, called Race. And it's about him entering and changing the landscape of NASCAR.

And so people like, uh, Tanner Adele, Raina Roberts, um, these are the people that are starting to change this, this landscape, entering it, understanding that they are all automatically going to be under attack and going, Hey, I'm going to do me, I'm going to put out the music, either you like it or you don't.

Right. And then it's up to the people that. that, uh, for a black girl leverage that that kind of gatekeep to go, Hey, these guys are a part of this too. It may not sound like a Willie Nelson or a, uh, Morgan Wallen, but they sound their country too. And so it really takes that. And so, um, what I got from that race documentary is that sometimes you just kind of have to take a stand.

And go, Hey, we're going to draw this line in the sand. Either you're going to accept me or you don't. And then other people have to kind of take up that, that idea and carry along with it. And, um, I think the fact that people are debating Beyonce is, is like, I think people are going, wait, maybe she does belong in this genre.

Like if she could pull off a record like this, we're like, Oh, Maybe, maybe it's okay. And then you then to put these, these lesser known people, like a Tanner Adele on your album.

Jay Ray: hm,

Big Mike: I guarantee you, I can get, you can name five people who have never heard of Tanner Adele. And so Beyonce put her on our album.

Jay Ray: yeah.

Big Mike: I can guarantee you people.

A lot of people didn't know who Shaboosie was,

Jay Ray: hm.

Big Mike: right? Those, those are, those are those names. We've got these young black artists. There's a guy named Jack Ross. Who is a fantastic R& B singer, right? But even he is going, Hey, I'm going to enter this genre and I want to be in the country because I think not that the door, the door was cracked.

I think Beyonce kind of is trying to blow that door open. And so it's hard to navigate that space when there's nobody else that looks like you in that space. And so it's hard to get in there, especially if the gatekeepers don't look like you

DJ Sir Daniel: I think, I think one, I think she's doing this on purpose because exactly what you said. Um, let's just say it. This is a, this was like a grudge album for Beyonce.

Jay Ray: I do think she was like, Oh, they didn't want me on that stage at the CMT. Yeah. The CMT. Yeah,

DJ Sir Daniel: And she

Big Mike: because they thought it was a joke. They thought it was a joke that she was going to do country. And so what she did was like, Oh, it's not a joke. I'm very serious. Here's the album to prove that I'm right.

DJ Sir Daniel: exactly. And it's almost like they're mad. It's almost like they're, they feel like we're appropriating their culture. Hmm. I wonder when,

Jay Ray: huh.

DJ Sir Daniel: did that come from? It almost feels like appropriation. And I wonder why they're feeling like that. No, but seriously. Beyoncé, this album represents what this country has been going through as we see books being taken out of libraries.

Um, the erasure of the discussion of even race and culture in our schools. Um, a lot of the, they want to take away, you know, um, They just don't want to feel, a lot of people don't want to feel bad or they feel like if you have these discussions or you have this separation or this, um, highlighting of black excellence in black culture, that that means this is inferior and if, and they don't want to feel bad because it makes them feel bad, but what you are doing is erasing history and what she is saying, somebody like a Beyonce is a big threat to them because they know her reach

Jay Ray: Mm hmm.

DJ Sir Daniel: and they know that it.

If she says it, it's a rap, then everybody's going to want to do it. Everybody's going to get into it. 

[00:33:45] The Power of Music in Cultural Representation
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DJ Sir Daniel: There is not going to be a space, a corner on this earth where that black woman is not going to be heard or seen. And they're very mad about it. Right.

Jay Ray: Sir, Daniel, you raised. Um, such an important point. And I had not thought about that as it relates to kind of the, even the title of Cowboy Carter, right? We're in this moment of, um, this division where you're right. All of this history, this important history isn't able to be taught anymore. Isn't able to be talked about, but if you have a record like Cowboy Carter that exists, you're forced to reckon with.

Right. The, um, you're forced to reckon with black culture. You're forced to answer questions about history. You can't not do it because Mike going back to what you said here and what you said as part of the special. We are foundational to country, right? When you talked about the Fort Bailey being the Grand Ole Opry is the Grand Ole Opry because the Fort Bailey was coming in there with that harmonica and sounded like a train and you realize like, Oh, wait, there was nothing before it didn't exist before that. We, you have to reckon with all of it, you know, um, in a way art has a way of speaking to people in ways that books. All of these other things, the news and all of these things cannot do. Beyonce's record though can for will force conversations that folks are definitely going to be uncomfortable needing to have. Why don't you like the Beyonce Cowboy Carter record? Sounds like a good record to me.

[00:35:28] Breaking Genre Barriers: Beyonce's Musical Versatility
---

Big Mike: People, I feel like people want to keep people in boxes, right? Like, um, I think that's the, like the Zach Brown, Zach Brown band. He, he basically announced that he was no longer going to be like, I'm just going to stick in countries, genres. And as an artist being put in a box is the very, is the opposite of what you're trying to do as an artist.

And so people are like, well, Beyonce, she just stick to her kind of music. And I'm like, what does it matter if she's, if she's feeling country that day, if I'm feeling country that day, I'm gonna play some country, right? If I'm feeling some R& B and I'm wanting to hit some 112, I'm gonna play some 112. If I'm feeling some seven dust and I want to hear to just the rage, I'm going to play that too.

And so I feel like we always trying to put these artists in boxes. And we were like, stay right here in your lane. Don't do anything else. Right. And then people go, why aren't they doing anything else? This all sounds the same because you want to, you want to keep them there. Right. 

[00:36:33] The Importance of Supporting Black Artists Across Genres
---

Big Mike: And so like, I think I saw somebody in the chat say, uh, that they wish publications would just highlight black artists.

In every genre and not just one or two, right? And I agree with that statement, right? Like, as a Black man, I just don't like Black music. I like all music. Whatever's gonna be a bop that I can rock my head to, that's what I'm listening to that day, right? And so, it doesn't matter if it's country, rock, neo soul, pop, whatever the case may be, right?

I feel like, as an artist, Especially someone of Beyonce's caliber. She's done, she's done all these, these other genres, right. And she can do them. So why not do country? Especially if you're someone who is from Houston, who has those, those roots to be in that, in that genre. I just don't think we should be gatekeeping other people in genre.

If a Morton Wallen wants to go do an R and B record. Go for it. I don't know how good it'll be Morgan, but if that's what your soul is telling you That's what your spirit is telling you go sing. Go go sing your little R& B man. Like do what you got to do I just don't feel like we should be putting people in boxes And I think that's where the controversy comes from is what is Beyonce doing over in this country stuff, right?

And so but Dolly Parton who is like Queen country, right? She's done other genres

Jay Ray: She's

Big Mike: one has a problem with, that's

Jay Ray: none. Her new album is basically like a rock record.

Big Mike: I'm saying, right? Nobody's like, Dolly shouldn't be doing rock. People are like, oh, good for her, right? At her age, she's doing a rock record,

DJ Sir Daniel: Yep. Nobody questions.

Big Mike: Parton's biggest hits, no, one of Dolly Parton's biggest hits is, is not even a country hit. She wrote it, right? And so I just think people just need to relax with this whole keeping people in a box thing and just let people create.

If you don't want to hear it, Don't listen to it. If that's not your vibe, don't listen to it. Right. If you want to stay in a certain kind of country, cool. There are subsections of country. There's bluegrass, all that stuff like that. Listen to it. But if, uh, if a Steve Martin can go put out a bluegrass album, why can't Beyonce put out a country album?

DJ Sir Daniel: Mm. Like, I'm glad you said that. So Dolly Parton, nobody questioned, just nobody questions Justin Timberlake. And when he did, when he wants to do R& B, or if he wants to go do his wild man, um, canyon music, nobody questions it. 

[00:39:10] Radio BSOTS Mid-Roll Ad
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[00:40:11] The Role of Black Radio in Promoting Diverse Music
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DJ Sir Daniel: In the comment section, Trey Dixon again said, and I want us to talk about this black targeted radio station, music and music publications should have highlight all black artists from every genre instead of focusing on one or two genres to beat us over the head with what is the responsibility or what can black radio specifically and.

are black outlets who are in this moment in time, black outlets really need to check themselves, but that's a whole nother different, um, show in this moment. What can black radio do? Cause I know here in Atlanta, um, V one Oh three was doing, which is a heritage. Um, it's a black heritage station here in Atlanta.

V one Oh three was playing the record. The Cowboy Carter and they'll do do that. Sometimes they'll play the whole record and, you know, let people experience it and, you know, talk to the people about it and whatnot. Let's talk programming, you know, Mike, your radio head. Let's talk programming. What can, what does black radio needs to do, uh, in order to say, you know what, we need to start supporting all of our artists, regardless of the genre that they're in.

Big Mike: I think they just need to, to be consistent. Yes. Beyonce, Beyonce has got the hot album right now and you want to play it because people want to listen to it. But what are you doing to help support this genre after Beyonce leaves the space? Are you, are you playing Raina Roberts? Are you playing Tanner Adele?

Are you playing these other black artists that do country? Are you playing them? Because then you're just here from when it's hot and not here for the long haul. And so I think part of it is getting people who actually like the genre in the building To talk to the people to explain these to explain it right to just go.

Hey, this is this new artist hannah adele She you know, she's trying to you know She's in the country genre just be able to talk about it Like you would talk these other talk about these other genres and this other music and these other artists I think it's about support And I think that, um, there is a reason why there is no black run radio, a country music radio station, at least, at least to my knowledge.

I haven't seen one yet.

DJ Sir Daniel: me throw this out to you real quick, Mike. 

[00:42:35] The Courage to Support Emerging Artists in Radio
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DJ Sir Daniel: Doesn't that take a certain type of bravery, right? To do these sort of things when we all know radio, especially in this day and age, radio is, it's all, it's very rigid, right? And it's a, It's most radio stations are owned by a particular corporation, and there is, there are certain things and guidelines that they have to do.

And so can we really expect commercial radio to exhibit that kind of bravery, uh, when it comes to incorporating, you know, these up and coming artists, these, especially these black artists that are reclaiming, um, country music and putting their heart and soul into it.

Big Mike: Yeah. I, I really think that it does take a lot of bravery in my opinion. Um, like I know when I worked at WMZQ on the East Coast, Uh, shout out to Ty Bailey. Uh, she's one of the, one of the best out there program directors, uh, at WMZQ. And she was one of the first people to actually play Jimmy Allen on the air, right?

He's got Jimmy Allen and all these other white, like just playing and programming him heavily brought him in for the concert, had him in the station. Like it's those type of things that, that I think other program directors and other radio stations need to do right is support these smaller artists.

Cause now Jimmy, Jimmy last year was everywhere. Right. You couldn't get rid of him. I got sick of seeing him. Right. And then he, then he blew up his own ship, but that's, that's another story. Right. Right. Right. And then, right. But, but, but the fact that MZQ, um, can say that they were on the forefront of really helping Jimmy's career by having him around and playing his music and bringing him in the station and talking to the people, like to me, that's support, especially when there weren't a lot in that space.

When he, when he showed up, right? And he broke records, right? Best shot. One of the, one of the top singles of that year broke like a record that Michael Jackson held previously, I believe, or something, or Charlie pride, excuse me. I believe. And then, uh, so it's about support. It's about being brave in those spaces and about going, Hey, we're going to play this.

We're going to play it until you get sick of it. Or you like, right. You know what I'm saying? Like they do with these other artists. And then eventually you're like, Oh, this is kind of catchy after you've heard it 50 million times.

[00:45:10] The Impact of Beyonce's Cowboy Carter on Music and Culture
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Jay Ray: Mike, I think going back of all the conversations that I think are really important, I think it is this conversation around, I'm less interested in, this is Johnny. Speaking for me, I'm less interested in white stations playing the Beyonce record, even though I know that's the thing I would really, where I think the magic is for me is I do want our, Black radio stations to begin to break the mold and embrace the fullness of all of the things that we do Really well country is one of them like we talked about when we did the special when I heard the war in treaty record I'm like, I have no idea why WDAS in Philly is not playing this song like y'all like there are so many songs Right, and so it gets me thinking You So, Sir Daniel, we're all familiar with this in the, you know, the 80s and the 90s, there would be that block of time where you could hear hip hop.

That was all you was gonna get. You had your block. This gonna be your block. It's probably gonna be real late, but you gonna get your hip hop in, right? Why is there not a rock show? Um, black, most black radio stations in the country. Why is there not a country show? There's typically a gospel show on Sundays, right?

Breaking this mold of, and this is where the racism, Mike, you talked about this in, during the special where music got segmented, where. The powers that be in the thirties and forties said, okay, y'all folks do this over here, y'all do jazz, be over there and blues. We going to be over here in country and bluegrass and Americana, even though the songs that they were singing came from the folk from us and they was gathering them up, right?

You know what I'm saying? These songs, right? The point is. The magic that I'm hoping it didn't happen with Renaissance. And I was actually disappointed where I was hoping that post Renaissance, we would get a resurgence of house music on radio as like more of a regular rotation. Like not this, I played on Saturday nights at, from 10 to two, so that kind of situation, it kind of didn't happen that way, I am hoping.

Maybe with Cowboy Carter that To your earlier point, Mike, it breaks, it kicks that door open enough to say, maybe we can do this because there are so many great artists over here doing this work. Yeah, we weren't able to accomplish it with the house stuff, but maybe this country thing, we can play that a little more regularly and get folks who listen to classic R& B can also listen to Raina Roberts and all these other folks.

You know what I'm saying? So that's my real hope out of all of the Cowboy Carter talk. Yes, the record is great, but how are we going to take it and push this thing even more forward, um, within the culture?

Big Mike: that's the, I mean, that's the key is being able to, to carry, carry on after the moment,

Jay Ray: Mm

Big Mike: right? After, after the moment has passed, what are we doing to continue to carry that and make real change? And not just country music, but in music period, right? How are we doing that? Are we supporting these people? Are we listening to them when, when they put out something?

Um, I'm not saying you're going to like everything that they put out, but give it a try, you might, you might run into something at this point. Um, but I think, I think slowly, um, we're starting to, we're starting to do that. Like even to your point about war and treaty, war and treaty showed up on wrestling the other day.

They sang, they sang God bless them. Yeah. They sang God bless America before, before a WWE match on a PLE. And then they use their song is as one of their theme songs for one of their, their pay per views. So like it, like, I'm like, Oh, Warren treaty,

DJ Sir Daniel: That's

Big Mike: fascinating. Right? Like, and so they're, they're an active part, but I think it's just a slow burn.

And we just have to just keep the keep the pressure keep moving forward and continue to Support these people and not go why is she in country? Why are they in country? Why are they doing this? It doesn't matter This is this is their album. Listen to the try to listen to the album Right see what you can like out of this Like and that and it also takes them to stay there.

Don't get pushed out

Jay Ray: Mm hmm.

Big Mike: it's just about support support support support. I can't say that enough about about about black artists in country Especially country support. That's what they need We need to show up for them like we show up for these r& b country concerts and these rap hip hop concerts All right.

Let's let's support them the same way

DJ Sir Daniel: Absolutely. And exactly. We needed, we needed to have you, Big Mike, on here to punctuate that for us. And so of course, A1, glad to have you give that to us and give that to our listeners. But before we go, you know, We are the, we're Queue Points Podcast. Like it or not, JRay, we are tastemakers. We are, you know, people listen to, people want to hear our opinions on certain things.

[00:50:52] Favorite Tracks from 'Cowboy Carter'
---

DJ Sir Daniel: So I do want to hear, like, um, just rattling off the top of you guys heads, like, what tracks stand out to you the most on the album, so far, that you really, really like,

Jay Ray: I have my, I have my two. I think I have two. Mike, if you want to go, that's fine. I have, I have mine.

DJ Sir Daniel: okay?

Big Mike: Let's see i'm pulling up the tracks right now because

DJ Sir Daniel: right, all right, so i'll i'll You want me to go out?

Jay Ray: Go ahead, Sir Daniel. You go, you set it off. A

DJ Sir Daniel: if you've been following me on social media You already know my number one song on this album Is body guard? Body guard is oh My goodness. I don't know what kind of What kind of hoodoo? As the kids say, this got crack in it.

That song has had me in a chokehold from the very first time I hit play on it. I'm, I'm getting the spirit of Marlena Shaw. I'm getting the fifth dimension, the mamas and the papas. And of course, Fleetwood Mac on that song. And it is just the, It's just so groovy it that's what I was talking about that California country soul that that song has that song is everything and people are being are figuring out are being introduced to Fleetwood Mack now because of that song because it's so heavy on the you know on the um the rumors Tip that album, but, um, I love body guard and of course, you know, I love Riverdance because well, you know, I'm slightly, I'm slightly, I'm a bird.

I'm a bit of a bird. I'm bitter. I'm a bit ratchet at times. And as a DJ, I can't not, not listen with DJ airs.

Jay Ray: Mhm.

DJ Sir Daniel: So Riverdance of course, hops out at me because it's, it's fun. It's re it's, it's ridiculously And I think we need more of music like that. We need more music to, to stretch us one, but still have fun.

We still have to have fun. So I'm going to, those are my, um, outstanding two tracks right now. And so J Ray, let's, let's hear you.

Jay Ray: real quick. So I do, I just added one. See, I'm now I'm adding stuff because, uh, because when you look at the track list, I'm like, Oh, I like that. My number one is PR is protector though. I've been very clear. Listen, I love me like an acoustic ballady thing. That's going to tug at the heartstrings. And then it has the protector and then projector thing.

I love when people do like a lyric thing like that where it's like, Oh, I see what you did there. Um, so, uh, protector featuring roomie, you know what I'm saying? Is pause. I am. Very encouraged by how Beyonce includes her children

DJ Sir Daniel: absolutely.

Jay Ray: like watching blue Her summer was on tour. You know what I said when blue got back to school They was like, so what'd you do this summer?

I was on tour

Big Mike: to work. That's what I did.

Jay Ray: I went to work

Big Mike: work

Jay Ray: Um, so protector with roomie is my number one Um love bodyguard But um since you picked that one, um two most wanted with molly cyrus I I, you can't listen, me and Miley, we see each other. I see her. I mean, we see each other. Like I get it. So if Miley's on a joint, I'm probably going to lean.

Like I want to lean in and hear that joint. Cause I I'm in the Miley Cyrus. So, uh, that one. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really fun. It has that beetle sample in it. It kind of gives you the, um, rock. Yeah. The Nancy Sinatra sample and the rockabilly. It does all of the things I was actually surprised. My one surprise was that Raphael Sadiq didn't produce that record.

I was like, Oh, this sounds like Raphael Sadiq definitely produced this. And then he did not. So I was surprised by that. And then my last, uh, Two Hands to Heaven. I really like Two Hands to Heaven. Um, You know what I'm saying? Gives me a little two step. I get to do a thing. Um, so yeah, those are my, those are my favorites and I added, I added two because I looked at the track list and was like, I love them.

Uh, what about you, Mike? What are you, what, what did you like that

Big Mike: Most wanted is definitely one that really caught my ear. Like hearing Beyonce and Miley's voice together. Like as they sing that, I'm like, man, that, that got me a little bit. The, like, it gets to you a little bit. I enjoyed that one. And then of course I got to just for fun with my boy, Willie Jones on it.

Like, I love that one too. I enjoy that one a lot. So, but I just love that. She's just like. Like, this Blackbird with Tana Adele, Britney Spencer, Tiara Kennedy, and Raina Roberts. And I'm like, bro, that's a lineup right

Jay Ray: Right!

Big Mike: Like, you could take these people on tour with you, Beyoncé. I would, I would show up for that, for that concert, right?

DJ Sir Daniel: I think she is. She probably will.

Big Mike: I'm there for that one. I don't pay Beyoncé prices, but I, I might for, for that one.

Jay Ray: I mean, you're getting a hefty lineup, right?

Big Mike: But the other thing is, Jolene is what stood out to me as well because of the work, how, how Dolly allowed her to change the words of her song, right? We've only know, and I'm sure that is probably one of the biggest people are outraged by that one the most. How dare she change the words of Jolene? This is what we've known for the last 50 years.

And I'm like, That just shows you the influence that Beyonce has, right? And Dolly Parton understands that. So you're like, yeah, go ahead and change the words of this song. Right. This well known song, people singing a karaoke at this point. So I just think that this album was just done really, really well.

And I, I, I actually enjoyed a lot more than I thought I would. So I I'm definitely here for it, but yeah.

DJ Sir Daniel: Hey, real quick. So, Mike, you did. You said something very, um, important about not paying Beyonce prices. And that brings up to me the, um, so a lot of the hive is concerned about the new fans. that this album is attracting. What do you all, based on what we've seen with the renaissance, right? 

[00:57:24] The Potential for Music to Unite Diverse Audiences
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DJ Sir Daniel: The concert, the tour, what do you think a new, a Beyonce show is going to look like as far as the audience is concerned now that this whole new audience Is brought in because there's new people there is going to be new people in the fold Y'all y'all are just gonna have to accept it that are coming that will be buying up tickets, too What do you think about that and the intermingling between?

You know this new audience

Jay Ray: You know Mike, I definitely want to get your thoughts on this and sir, Daniel, I did not know you were going to ask this and I had not thought about it, but you know, we are in a time where you can just turn off people who don't think like you look like you do what you do in the way that you do it. You can literally, we're literally in a time where you can cut them out, right? This what art does. Is it forces us baby music is universal like you don't know who come in to get the music You know what i'm saying and the people who come and get the music like well you came here to get the music So that must mean you okay you came here to I came here to get it You came here to get it.

We here together getting it, right? so I, I have not been more encouraged about people getting into a room together than I am about the idea of who heard Cowboy Carter. And we'll show up at that show wanting to get what Beyonce is going to give them and having to mingle with people who are OG Beyonce folks, or maybe new folks, because there's a bunch of new people coming to this record because the songwriting on this record, yes, it's got some Beyonce tropes that Beyonce does certain things lyrically, but.

It's got a lot of beautifully written lyrics on this album that are like, Oh my God, this is well done. So new people from all walks of life. So saying all that to say, I'm encouraged. I want us to all get in that room and, and saying, and, and do the things that we want to do together. And maybe we'll leave better. Maybe we'll leave better.

Big Mike: Yeah, I mean, I'm hoping that, I mean, that's the, that's the, the wish, right? The hoop dream that, that people just come to a concert to enjoy a concert, especially, you know, Beyonce prices. Like who's going to, why are you going to show up, pay all that money and just act stupid? Like, it

Jay Ray: ridiculous, right?

Big Mike: Right. But, but I hope that people knew people. Who have been brought in by Beyonce that, that the old Beyonce fans open them with go, welcome. We've been here. We've been waiting for you. Come, come join us. One of us, right? Like I want it to be that way. And I really hope that people go, all right. Okay.

Beyonce. I see what you're doing out there. And that last album one for me, but this one, this one's mine. It's my time here. Right. And so I really hope that, uh, that people coming together, just enjoying music, right. Enjoying country music, whatever you want to call it, right. Just enjoying music. And have a good time and I so I so I hope that Uh, this album just brings people together and I hope I think that's her I think like I would like to think that is her idea is that this is supposed to kind of help erase those lines Between us and them and go.

Hey, I can do this too. If you enjoy me, maybe you'll enjoy this as well So that's just the hope that's the hope that's what I pray for

DJ Sir Daniel: i'm with y'all But my thing is look you all have months to practice Please don't come in here messing up the electric slide. Whatever you do, get that electric slide down pat, because when you come to the show at some point or another, there is going to be a slide moment. We don't need anybody messing up the continuity of the electric slide or any slide dance that takes place at this show.

So get it together folks that you have time. You have time. And I know, and slide, and slide dances go well with a lot of country

Jay Ray: Oh, yeah,

DJ Sir Daniel: this should be a no brainer. And you know how I feel about slide dances and, and my, my wanting to know about their etiology and where they come from, but that's a whole nother show, but I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.

Y'all this has been fun.

Jay Ray: this has been so fun. Mike, thank you so much for being here. 

[01:02:14] Closing
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Jay Ray: So before we get out of here, where can folks find you? Where can they connect with you online? Let the folks know. What's up.

Big Mike: Uh, my social is at thetruebigmike, without the e in true, on Instagram, and, uh, not Twitter, X. Um, you can, if you wanna, if you're interested in, in podcasts, check out, uh, Stitch Please, with Lisa Wilford. That's a really good one. I, so I hear, um, I also work on a couple of other award winning podcasts. One is called the love the amazing Clarks and, um, soul affirmations.

You guys know that you're familiar with soul affirmations. Yeah, we have Krieger and Felicia. Um, and then we have Reparenting for the Culture. It's hosted by, uh, Sheree Sims. So, if you have some time, check them out. Like, that's, that's usually what I'm working on. Uh, uh, and then currently working on a, a new show with my wife called Chunky Love.

So, that's gonna be coming soon. Uh, so, I'm, I'm, I'm not hard to find, right? If you're looking for me I usually show up so

Jay Ray: listen, man. We are so grateful for you, Mike. And for those of you, shout out to all the folks that joined us. I see, uh, James peoples is in the chat. Um, no black stations did not play Jada's, uh, metal.

DJ Sir Daniel: Wicked

Big Mike: and they should have

Jay Ray: They should have. Cause was it wicked wisdom was what they're called.

DJ Sir Daniel: wisdom. But oh, but have you seen what Willow has been working on?

Jay Ray: Willow is killing the game.

DJ Sir Daniel: Crazy playing all these instruments and scatting.

Jay Ray: Listen,

DJ Sir Daniel: amazing. That's

Jay Ray: Beyonce does that rock record next, call Willow. Um, but yo, shout out to Mark McPherson, shout out to Dr. Ed Garns, Trey, uh, Payadu, um, Joshua Alston, shout out to, who has a great new article in The Reckoning,

DJ Sir Daniel: Mm

Jay Ray: about Gerard Carmichael's new reality show, so go on over and check

Big Mike: thing is wild.

Jay Ray: Look, go check

Big Mike: thing is wild.

Jay Ray: Please check out Joshua's article. Um, yeah, man. Like this is Mike always great to have you. So for those of you that are tuning in, um, thank you all so much for being here. Subscribe wherever you are watching. If you hear our voice, make sure that you hit. The subscribe button there, share the show with your friends and family.

That is the way more people can discover Queue Points. Definitely sign up for our magazine at magazine. Queue Points. com and, um, shop our store, store. Queue Points. com where you can get all kinds of merch.

DJ Sir Daniel: Absolutely. Fellas, what do I always say in this life? You have a choice. You can either pick up the needle or let the record play. I am Cowboy Daniel,

Jay Ray: I'm cowboy J Ray.

DJ Sir Daniel: and

Big Mike: i'm cowboy big mike,

DJ Sir Daniel: there you go. This has been Queue Points Podcast, dropping the needle on black music history. We will see you on the next go round. Peace.

Jay Ray: Peace.

[01:05:20] Closing Theme
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