Why Whitney Thought “Shoop Shoop” Wouldn’t Work

Transcript

[00:00:00]

Hook

Sir Daniel: she was like, "Shoop?" Oh Lord, he done ran out of words. He's run out of lyrics. 'Cause at first she was kinda like she wasn't really 100% sold, like thinking like- Right

is this gonna really, is this gonna cut it?

Jay Ray: Yeah.

Sir Daniel: But lo and behold, it's, it's one of those things, it's simplicity is probably the best.

Intro Theme

Intro & The 1995 Renaissance of Black Soundtracks

Sir Daniel: Greetings, and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast. I am DJ Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III. What's happening, people?

Sir Daniel: Jay Ray, I have been looking forward to this moment of respite with you- Yeah ... and speaking with [00:01:00] the audience because I think this is a really fun topic.

We always here at Queue Points salute the ladies, and we love having discussions about the women and, um, things that they've done in this industry- Mm-hmm ... in this thing we call Black music history.

this episode, we are talking about one of probably one of the most groundbreaking soundtracks to have ever come forth, and featuring only nothing but the top-notch women of the industry at that time.

Jay Ray: Yep.

Sir Daniel: Ladies and gentlemen, we are discussing the Waiting to Exhale soundtrack on this episode.

So what we wanna know right off the bat, what is your absolute favorite song on the Waiting to Exhale soundtrack?

Jay Ray: But I wanna underscore something that you said, Sir Daniel, because it is absolutely true because in 1995 when this soundtrack was released, [00:02:00] one, I think this is like the renaissance- Mm-hmm

of Black movie soundtrack era. There was just so many classic soundtracks, and this one being incredibly unique as it was just all women on it. And so many different flavors of Black women were on this joint too. But all, you know, written and composed by one person.

Sir Daniel: Absolutely. So let's,

Discussing The Film, Forest Whitaker, the Ensemble Cast & Terry McMillan

Sir Daniel: let's give it up to the movie Waiting to Exhale it was directed by Forest Whitaker. Yep. Right?

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel: Um, and it had like the lead cast- Yeah ... at that time was, I mean, just creme de la creme. You had Loretta Devine.

Jay Ray: Boom.

Sir Daniel: Lela Rochon.

Jay Ray: Boom.

Sir Daniel: Angela Bassett.

Jay Ray: Boom.

Sir Daniel: And none other than the incomparable Whitney Houston.

That is a power [00:03:00] ensemble cast right there, and we haven't even talked about the pe- the supporting cast, which was- Just as bomb as well, right?

Jay Ray: All of the fellas that was in there. Of course we, you know, shout out to Gregory Hines and just all of the men that were in it. Two things real quick, Sir Daniel.

Mm-hmm. I just thought about this as I was getting ready for this show. The other thing I really like about Waiting to Exhale the film is it feels very sepia. You know what I mean? Like it's a very

Sir Daniel: Yes. Everybody had that warm orange glow to them.

Jay Ray: Right. The whole film. So I love, I love that. Um, and the fact that yes You got this powerhouse Black ensemble of women, you know what I'm saying, leading this film- Mm-hmm

who had just different level ... All of these women did different kinds of movies, like- Yes ... um, and so their, their range was really different. So watching it all kind of come together, and I don't remember a lot. I didn't research a lot about the news leading up to the release of the film. [00:04:00] But I will say I remember seeing this in the theater and feeling like they were really friends.

Sir Daniel: I remember there was, the rollout was incredible. Mm-hmm. I do remember that. The rollout was incredible because all four of them appeared on the Oprah show. I remember that. Which was, at that time, that was like if you weren't booked on Oprah- ... to, to, um, to push your, your latest project- Like famous

what are you doing? Right. Like- If you're not, if you're not on Oprah, it's not gonna do well. Yes. So everybody had to be on Oprah, and Oprah had all the ladies on there all at the same time. And we would be remiss to have this discussion without mentioning Terry McMillan- We can't. We need to ... the writer of Waiting to Exhale, along with her series of books.

Because the reason why the soundtrack was so impactful was because Terry McMillan, as an author, tapped into [00:05:00] something very visceral in Black women. She, she spoke to Black women like nobody else was speaking to them- Mm-hmm ... at the time.

Jay Ray: Yeah.

Sir Daniel: Her books were flying off the shelf, and I think this was the one book that everybody could envision as a movie.

Jay Ray: Yes.

Sir Daniel: And the fact that it came to fruition and became a movie was like a dream come true for Black women across the world. This was their, they were all wai- literally waiting- ... to exhale. So, and, and we were talking about the ensemble cast. I, I- Mm-hmm ... and let's just be for real.

Whitney Houston's Moment From Bodyguard to Waiting to Exhale

Sir Daniel: Waiting to Exhale literally was gonna, is supposed to be Whitney Houston's big moment.

Yeah. So, like, she's, um, this wasn't her first. No, she, she was, she was the writer for The Bodyguard. No, The Body, this is

Jay Ray: after

Sir Daniel: The

Jay Ray: Bodyguard. So Whitney Houston is huge. So, yeah. Huge. I Will Always Love You had already happened. So Whitney Houston at this point in her career [00:06:00] is, like, an actor now, right? Mm-hmm.

So, um, in fact, music had pretty much taken a backseat to all the other stuff. One, she had got married. Two, she had had Bobbi Kris. Yes. Three, she was, like, doing a lot of acting. So at this point, um, this was a big deal for her. Uh, but the, I, I will say what's different about this, though- She's now acting next to seasoned Black actors.

Like these women that she's- Yes. Angela Bassett had just come off her Oscar nom for, uh- Mm-hmm ... What's Love Got to Do with It? This was a big, big deal.

Sir Daniel: Major, major deal. And what I did love about it is that they all embraced her.

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel: Like you have Loretta Devine, who is, who is probably the, the most seasoned out of all of them.

Yep. And I mean is, uh, is a triple threat in herself. Singer- Mm-hmm ... actress, dance, all of that good stuff. And they all embraced Whitney.

Transition

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[00:07:00]

The Soundtrack Roster Who Made the Cut & How

Sir Daniel: let's run down the list of who's- Mm ... actually featured on this- Yes ... album. Because the, a- and let's talk about how they got on the album.

Jay Ray: Because

Sir Daniel: so, um- I feel like that's gonna come up.

That's definitely gonna come up. So we've got TLC.

Jay Ray: Yes.

Sir Daniel: The Toni Braxton.

Jay Ray: Who-

Sir Daniel: Brandy ...

Jay Ray: by the way, and so this is interesting because Toni Braxton is becoming a huge star right now. Yes. So she's still new, but y- she's becoming this huge star, so this is a moment too for Toni.

Sir Daniel: So we got Toni Braxton. Mm-hmm. Uh, where was I?

Brandy.

Jay Ray: Of course.

Sir Daniel: Aretha Franklin. Chaka Khan. Mm-hmm. Faith Evans, Patti LaBelle, SWV, Mary J. Blige. Chanté Moore, For Real. F- For Real. We, you know- For [00:08:00] Real ... we gotta give For Real some respect. Um- Listen ... Shanna

Um, Cece Winans-

Jay Ray: Yes ...

Sir Daniel: and Sonia Marie, who was a very talented poet here in the Atlanta area. Absolutely. Like, this was so major for her to be on that soundtrack.

Jay Ray: Yeah. So she was a name. It's so interesting because, um, she was a name that, especially if you followed any R&B and Atlanta music, uh, at the time, like Sonia Ma- Marie was definitely a name that you knew.

But Shanna was a newer name. And so one of the interesting things, 'cause this is of course come up, so Shanna was working with Whitney Houston. So this goes back to your original thing. So

How Babyface & Whitney Selected the Artists

Jay Ray: how did these people get on the soundtrack? Babyface was like, "Yo, Whitney, we, uh, we wanna do this soundtrack. Feel like it should be all women."

What did Whitney say? "Yes, I, I think,

Sir Daniel: you know, I think that's-" I think that is cool. That'd be cool.

Jay Ray: Y- right. And question number two was [00:09:00] who do you not, was it who do you not wanna be on it or who do you wanna

Sir Daniel: be on it? Well, she was joking. She was- Okay. She said she was, it was during a press conference for, for the movie and the soundtrack, and she jokingly said that Babyface asked her, "Well, come up with a list of who you don't want on the album."

Don't want. And she said, "I pulled out my pen, and the reason you don't see them on this a- soundtrack is because I didn't," and then she said no, she was joking. She was definitely just kidding around about that. Mm-hmm. But yes, they did hand select a, um, quite a few of these, um, names because l- let's look at it.

It's Arista. Mm-hmm. It's Atlanta. Most of these people have worked with Babyface already. Yeah. And then I'm sure there was, there's a few of these names on here that are like family to her, like Aretha and Chaka and Patti. So it just made sense. Yes. These are, these women, that these people were selected to be on the soundtrack.

So now, so that's why we f- we, we found [00:10:00] it so interesting, like Shanna. Shai- who is this Shanna? And as we do on here, we started looking around and asking the question and finding out that yes, indeed, she was a protege- Mm-hmm ... uh, for Whitney Houston. She was an up-and-coming singer. Yep. What was the other thing that we found very interesting- Oh

about this lineup? Go ahead.

Jay Ray: So one of the things, and we, we had asked this question as we were prepping for this because, um, we were like, "Wait a minute."

Sir Daniel: Glaring. "

Discussing the Omissions and Why Some May Not Have Made the Cut

Jay Ray: Where's, where's Monica?"

Sir Daniel: Where is Monica? Yes, we- it was like a glaring- Like- ... omission like, where is- wait a minute. Why isn't Monica on here?

Jay Ray: But then we answered that question.

So Monica was really new still. So Miss Thang, Monica's debut album, came out in June of '95. This soundtrack came out in the fall. So Monica would not... Her album wasn't even out probably at the time when they were recording the songs for this soundtrack. But if this, if [00:11:00] Monica had come out, like, a, a good time ahead, she likely- Mm-hmm

would've been on this soundtrack. So I really do think it was just, like, she was just too new.

Sir Daniel: Some other names that we were like, "Hey, why wasn't such and such?" Yeah. Mariah Carey.

yeah. And we, we kind of have our own theory on why Mariah wasn't on there because- Mm-hmm

this was kinda in the midst of, you know, of m- I'm not gonna say it was, there was some beef. No, I don't think there was any beef at that time. But s- but it definitely, I think Mariah Carey was heavily still tied up with Tommy Mottola and that deal at Sony- Mm-hmm. Yep ... that they, this is just, um, Queue Points theorizing here- Yep

that the whole team over here at the Baby- at the, um, Waiting to Exhale soundtrack was like, "You know what? Love Mariah, but we don't feel like dealing with that Tommy Mottola monster over there and, and Sona- Sony. That, 'cause that's a whole corporate monster, and [00:12:00] we probably just don't wanna deal with that."

And Babyface is already on the pen-

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm ...

Sir Daniel: and already just knocking out these songs. And, you know, Mariah's also a songwriter, so maybe it was just- Yeah ... easier that way.

Jay Ray: Yeah. And I mean, and it, we d- it definitely, we know there was no beef. Whitney and Mariah have talked about like, "We ain't had no beef with one another."

That was definitely a media thing. And also, we know that Mariah didn't have beef with Babyface 'cause Babyface had been on Mariah's, like, album- Mm-hmm ... that came out right before this soundtrack. So I think I agree with you, um, Sir Daniel, is I really do think it was more it came down to the business side of things.

It was just- Yeah ... too far removed, you know what I'm saying? From a business standpoint. Now, had this been a Sony-affiliated soundtrack, we'd probably be having a different conversation. Mariah probably

Sir Daniel: would've been on there. Mariah probably would've been singing Shoot Chute. Uh, one last name- Oh my God. One last name that came up while we were researching this that people were like, "Why weren't they on the soundtrack?"

Anita Baker. [00:13:00]

Jay Ray: I can see how that- Anita Baker ... that's surprising. I can see that.

Sir Daniel: Yeah.

Jay Ray: I can see that. And you know what? And En Vogue. But she was in a weird period of her career. Huh?

Sir Daniel: And En Vogue. I just thought about En Vogue.

Jay Ray: Now, En Vogue is an interesting one, but you know, but that's a whole other situation where En Vogue were heavily, um, c- like managed by their producers at the time.

Mm. Right? Okay. So I can definitely see... Oh, and this is probably a weird time for En Vogue, 'cause you know what? Uh, Don't Let Go came out like a year later, so there may have been some, like- stuff about that which got them to a hit song, but just not in time enough to be on the Waiting to Exhale soundtrack.

That would've made sense having En Vogue

Sir Daniel: And, and then they were probably going through lineup changes-

Jay Ray: They- ... at that moment ... they were. This was a weird time.

Sir Daniel: Um, Yes. It was probably a very weird time for the ladies of En Vogue.

Transition

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[00:14:00]

On Babyface and Writing in the Voice of Black Women

Sir Daniel: we keep mentioning one person in this conversation, and we gotta talk about Babyface.

Jay Ray: We do.

Sir Daniel: We gotta talk about Babyface and the fact that it's just so, it's astounding, mind-blowing in a good way to me that Babyface is able to successfully write in the voice of women-

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm ...

Sir Daniel: and really create a great contemporary soundtrack in the Waiting to Exhale soundtrack. And it's like, how does he, how does he do that?

How does he, how is he able to write from a woman's perspective? Or is it a woman's perspective and it's just very a human perspective, or, and women can sing it, can give it, can breathe more life into the song? Or do you think he was trying, he was tapping into his feminine side, or hi- [00:15:00] the, not the woman in him, but- Mm-hmm

you know what I'm trying to say here.

Jay Ray: I know what you're... Um, I think Babyface comes from the school of, um, just, like, classic songwriting- Mm-hmm ... where it is the songwriter's job to channel the emotions, feelings of the artist that they're working with. I would not be surprised if Babyface had conversations with each of these women to talk about this film and to talk about what this means to be able to craft some of these songs.

And, and the reason why I know that that's, uh, likely a thing is because Brandy's "Sittin' Up in My Room" is the perfect song for a 15, 16-year-old girl to sing- Absolutely ... about love. You know what I'm saying? So I think it's just channeling. It's able to listen to the artist that you're working with, able [00:16:00] to recognize what their strengths are, and then channel that into a song.

'Cause you know, you have TLC on here, which at the time people thought, might have thought was weird, but "This Is How It Works," "Run," is the perfect song for a, an album like this, right? Absolutely. Yes. And it's a great song for them to be on. It makes sense that T-Boz's voice would be on this soundtrack, right?

So I think it's, I think it's that. There's another interesting note about this that I wanna bring up, uh, too.

The Year Babyface Went Solo & L.A. Reid Stepped Back

Jay Ray: 1995 really does mark the year of Babyface because, you know, prior to this it was L.A. and Babyface.

Sir Daniel: You know what? You're absolutely right.

Jay Ray: L.A. Reid, um, really began to lean into the LaFace executive producer role [00:17:00] And it was like '94 when he was on a couple of things, but after '94, L.A. Reid is an executive producer.

He is not in the studio. Mm-hmm. So this also marks the beginning of the Babyface as a producer himself era. Um-

Sir Daniel: Correct, because this same year we got, um, Bedtime Stories-

Jay Ray: Yep ...

Sir Daniel: from Madonna. Mm-hmm. So he was really, really in his bag in this year. Mm-hmm. But it was so funny. Do you, I don't know if you recall the rollout, um, of f- of this, um, soundtrack, but of course we know the, um, Exhale was the lead single, which of course was by Whitney.

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel: Performed by Whitney Houston, and

Whitney's Doubt About "Exhale (Shoop Shoop)" & the Power of Simplicity

Sir Daniel: Whitney went on a couple shows, I wanna say it was on BET with, um, with Donny Simpson, and she was talking about working with Babyface, and when she [00:18:00] got the song Shoop Shoop, she was like, "Shoop?" Oh Lord, he done ran out of words. He's run out of lyrics. 'Cause at first she was kinda like she wasn't really 100% sold, like thinking like- Right

is this gonna really, is this gonna cut it?

Jay Ray: Yeah.

Sir Daniel: But lo and behold, it's, it's one of those things, it's simplicity is probably the best when it come singing, songwriting. Simplicity is probably the best factor of the f- of the formula when it comes to making a hit song. And repetitiveness, because we all w- you know, as soon as she fell into that chorus of shoop shoop- Shoop shoop

we all fall into that shoop shoop with her.

Jay Ray: You, and I think that's also, and this is one of the songs that a lotta people have picked, it's also what makes Shante Moore's Way You work, right? Mm-hmm. Way You is just Shante Moore kind of cooing on the song, it melodically. You know, it's, it's mela- it's, [00:19:00] you know, it does- there's not words.

It's

Sir Daniel: ooh. She's, she's standing on a cliff wearing something very gauzy, and the wind is just blowing- Right ... her away, yes.

Jay Ray: And but Babyface gets that, right? That song also fits. Um, I also see it as kind of like, um, akin to, it's like the other side of This Is How It Works. You kinda get to the Way You. You know what I mean?

Mm-hmm. Exactly. Um, but yeah, no, I think you're right with Exhale Actually with all of these songs, there's something about them that makes them, them, it makes them click. Like he definitely gets how to craft a song, make sure the melodies work so you can sing them, um, and repeat them, and this soundtrack is just chock-full of those moments.

Transition

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Queue Points Builds Their Own Soundtrack Featuring Contemporary Artists

Sir Daniel: Let's build our own Waiting to [00:20:00] Exhale soundtrack. Ooh. What contemporary artists?

Jay Ray: Oh. Okay.

Sir Daniel: And I'm thinking, you know what, and it's probably, it's gonna be really easy because Babyface kind of already did with his, um- Like the women, the thing a couple years ago ... with the compilation album a couple years ago.

Um, what was that called? Uh, Glo-

Jay Ray: I can't remember what it was called. Was it La- Girls' Night Out? I feel like it was like Ladies Night Out or Girls' Night Out or something like

Sir Daniel: that. Something to that effect. But I'm thinking if we're gonna have like a 2027 version you gotta have Muni Long on there.

Jay Ray: Yes.

Sir Daniel: Gotta have- Her ... her.

Jay Ray: Gotta have

Sir Daniel: her. Jazmine Sullivan.

Jay Ray: Jazmine. Um-

Sir Daniel: Now I think we gotta throw a classic sister in there.

Jay Ray: Oh,

Sir Daniel: yeah. Like, if we can, if we can get her out of hiding, out of, um-

Jay Ray: Who? ...

Sir Daniel: reclusiveness. Sade. What do you think?

Jay Ray: Oh, yeah, but she's not gonna, she's not gonna do it, but Sade would be great on the soundtrack.

Sir Daniel: That sounds, that sounds fine and all, but she ain't gonna do it. But-

Jay Ray: She's not gonna do it ... sure,

Sir Daniel: put that on your

Jay Ray: wish list. But also- ... [00:21:00] I would, I would invite, you know who I would invite? I would invite Doechii.

Sir Daniel: Mm. Yeah.

Jay Ray: I would, I would get Doechii to sing and do a rap, give it a very, um, How Do I Love Thee, Queen Latifah kind of vibe to it.

Like, Doechii would, like, kill it. Yeah. Um, would you... You know what? I'ma just throw her on there. And Meg. Huh?

Sir Daniel: How about

Jay Ray: Meg? You can bring Meg. You can bring Meg, too. And you know what I would do that would send this soundtrack crazy? You gotta reunite Destiny's Child. D- DC3

Sir Daniel: Ooh, yeah

Jay Ray: Michelle, Kelly, and Beyoncé gotta do a song Why,

Sir Daniel: why don't we aim for DC5, though?

Jay Ray: But does... But listen, if we can get DC5- Why don't we- ... let's do it 'Cause I, you know- We, if we can get, if we can get them all- Yeah ... let's do it.

Sir Daniel: Let's do it. And, and even, and let's make it- Michelle ... even hotter. We, we get DC5 reunited for the song, and we get Michelle Ndegeochilo- Ndegeochilo ... playing on that song.

Jay Ray: Can [00:22:00] you imagine her on the bassline leading the, like- Nasty, nasty work What's up, y'all? Oh my God. Yeah, can you imagine her voice coming in with that? Come on. Come on. I'm still waiting for your tail.

Sir Daniel: Right. Looking at you in the corner. Playing my bass guitar, waiting for you to accept. She's coming here to Atlanta pretty soon, and

Jay Ray: Oh,

You know who we gotta also have also to the callback? SWV sh- and Chaka need to come back. Mm. Bring SWV

and Chaka back.

Sir Daniel: I'm with it. That would be an amazing, amazing lineup . Do you want Janelle Monáe? Do you want

Jay Ray: Jan- Janelle Monáe? Do you know what? This is not her vibe.

Sir Daniel: Mm.

Jay Ray: She's talented.

Okay. But is this her vibe?

Sir Daniel: I don't know. We, we got this, uh... So remember guys- Rem- ...

The Sequel That Never Was & Favorite Moments from the Film

Sir Daniel: there was rumors of a sequel to Waiting to Exhale.

Yeah. Unfortunately, because, um, of Whitney's, um- Whitney, mm-hmm ... passing, you know, that kinda got the kabosh. So, you know, I don't think we'll ever see that, and we can love on this movie. It's, it's a classic. Mm-hmm. It's a classic. I, we can,

Jay Ray: we can go back- What's your favorite scene? What's your favorite [00:23:00] scene from the movie?

Sir Daniel: Oh. Oh, man. Girl. Girl. Oh, now all of a sudden I'm in a zoo? Absolutely.

Jay Ray: You know, I- What's yours?

Sir Daniel: What's-

Jay Ray: You know what? No. I'm not gonna go for, I'm not gonna go for the classic- Okay ... um, Angela Bassett cl- crash out scene. Uh- This

Sir Daniel: movie is iconic.

Jay Ray: "You're the fucking man, Edward!" "Edward is dying influence." You know what I think it is, though? I do love the scene of, uh, when Loretta Devine and Gregory Hines are just kind of flirting with one another. Oh.

Sir Daniel: Oh my God, that is a classic scene.

Jay Ray: It's a classic scene- The,

Sir Daniel: the plate, the plate- ...

Jay Ray: that feels really good.

The plate,

Sir Daniel: oh, the food. The plate that falls on the owner. The food, the list of food. Oh, yes. Absolutely. Waiting to Exhale is just sitting right there. It's like- Yes ... it's just a history, a recorded [00:24:00] history of female empowerment. Um, also a, a great ode to a great director.

Mm-hmm. A great writer, a great songwriter. Yeah. Absolutely A-one, 10 out of 10, no notes on this soundtrack.

Jay Ray: No notes. No skips. This is a, this is a classic soundtrack. When people want an example of what, uh, what the '90s were like. Just give them the Waiting to Exhale soundtrack and be like, "Just play that."

Closing

Jay Ray: Thank y'all so much. If you can see our faces, if you can hear our voices, thank you for being here.

Hit the subscribe button wherever you are so you can get notified about, uh, when Queue Points has something going on and we live and we doing stuff, all of that. Do us a solid. Tell your friends, tell your colleagues, tell your family, if you like Queue Points, chances are they will like Queue Points, and it helps to spread the word about the show.

Visit our website at queuepoints.com. You can sign up for our newsletter [00:25:00] over there. You can navigate on over to our blog. and last but not least, if you want to, um, get some fresh gear, you can shop Queue Point... You can shop our store at store.queuepoints.com.

That helps to keep the lights on over in Queue Points land. We appreciate y'all, and we love y'all.

Sir Daniel: Once again, we thank you very much for tuning into this episode. But what do I always say? In this life, you have, you have a choice. You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play. I'm DJ Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray: I'm Jay Ray, y'all.

Sir Daniel: And this has been Queue Points podcast, dropping the needle on Black music history. We will see you all on the next go-round. Peace.

Jay Ray: Peace, y'all.

Outro Theme

[00:26:00]