Dame Dash: From Harlem Hustler to Hip-Hop Villain

Transcript

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[00:00:00] Intro Theme

[00:00:16] Welcome to the Show

Sir Daniel: Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast. I am DJ Sir Daniel

Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my governments as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III. What's happening good people? Sir Daniel, how you

[00:00:31] Jay-Z's Yankee Stadium Concert Recap

Jay Ray: doing?

Sir Daniel: You know what? I'm fantastic. It's been a, an amazing week. Um, Jay-Z has had an amazing week. Well, I w- I don't know about amazing. It's been mostly amazing, specifically for, like, um, New Yorkers and Jay-Z fans specifically after his amazing appearance at, uh, the, um, what was it?

Yankee Stadium, right? And of course, you know, it wouldn't be, um, a, a good hip hop show if there was, if it wasn't wrought with or fraught with, um, difficulties

and, you know, shenanigans and whatnot.

I do think one of the main things that came out of this, um, out of this concert series that Jay had to celebrate, uh, Reasonable Doubt and his career and just to celebrate himself, is the fact that despite having an, a, a packed arena for all three nights, having his wife, who is a mega superstar, be in the show, his daughter participated in the show.

Um, he had a, a, a, a, a plethora of artists that r- love and respect him, uh, mutually come through and be on the show. There's that one guy, that one gloomy Gus, that one grampy grandpa, Chatty Patty,

Jay Ray: Sh- definitely a Chatty Patty

Sir Daniel: Chatty Patty propping himself up in front of somebody's camera to make disparaging comments about Blue Ivy and having her in the show, and that's ghetto, and I pay for my kids not to be in a part of street life, and to, and to say that it is cringe to have your wife, your girl...

Not even your wife.

Why you got Your why you got your girl cutting your hair? Man, that's cringe. Why you got your girl doing that? Pause. he is the, uh, it, he's working himself up to be... Well, he already is, like, the, the, the poster boy for a hater

Jay Ray: Yeah. Yeah. Basically. And it, and when you reflect on it, it could have all been so different. Like, it didn't have to look like this, because when you look at the trajectory of Jay, and when you looked at the trajectory of, uh, Kareem, Dame could have had a different trajectory of his career because there's clearly something there that he has a talent for.

We're gonna talk about that a little bit later, 'cause I don't know that we can always pinpoint it based on all of the foolishness around him. So this could have been very different. So it's, it's, it's, it's definitely a, a weird time. But so we wanted to spend some time at the beginning of, of this show, y'all, just kind of talking a bit about Dame Dash. I wanna do a quick history of his career, and then Sir Daniel and I wanna reflect on kind of what he represents, and just do some other kind of conversation. But,

Sir Daniel: This is a cautionary tale

Jay Ray: this is a, this is a cautionary tale. Um, and I think this starts at the beginning.

[00:04:10] Transition

[00:04:17] Dame Dash's Background and Rise

Jay Ray: I made my notes on Dame Dash.

I wanted to make sure that I share. We know him. He's from Harlem. Lifelong entrepreneur. Hustler is the term that is most often applied to him, and I think that colors how he- h- all the things that has happened to him at his highest high and his lowest low, because I think there's, like, a, a plus and a minus to that mentality, right?

But anyway, co-founder of Roc-A-Fella Records, co-founder of Rocawear. Um, there's some other businesses in there, but those are the two that we really know. Um- Big thing with Dame is of course in the, the, the mid-'90s. It's a famous tale of, it's '94, Jay-Z, uh, is trying to get signed. Um, we first see JC- Jay-Z in the Jaz-O video for The Originators in 1990.

It's four years later, Jay-Z has grown up. He's trying to get a deal. He can't get a deal, so him and his boys decide they are gonna start a record label because they are entrepreneurial, and that record label is Roc-A-Fella. And of course, it becomes a major deal because of course, two years later, Jay's Reasonable Doubt comes out, um, and really ushers us into the Jay-Z era.

That's why Jay had those, the show at Yankee Stadium. He's celebrating 30 years of Jay-Z, um, and Reasonable Doubt. So through that run I will say this. Early in Jay-Z's career, and I don't know if this is true for you, Sir Daniel, I didn't really have a, a, a line on Dame. Like, I wasn't re- he wasn't as visible of a character in the, the, the Roc-A-Fella, the, the ex- uh, external facing world.

Definitely saw Jay. You definitely saw, like, Amil. Like, you saw the artists more. But as Roc-A-Fella's, uh, uh, profile rised, Dame emerges as his own character, and I say that very purposefully, in the Roc-A-Fella story. Because I distinctly remember that Big Pimpin' video and Dame Dash and the champagne bottles and all of that stuff, and I'm like, I never remembered him as that guy be- you know, before.

And all of a sudden he's his own character in the rise of Roc-A-Fella. Um, am I misremembering that? Did you, did, was Dame, like, a big figure before then publicly?

[00:07:17] Dame Emerges as a Public Figure

Sir Daniel: No, I think, no, I think you're on point. I do believe that Dame witnessed what it could mean to be second fiddle

wing man to, next to the man who is the man. And he took a cue from, and took a page out of Diddy's, Diddy's playbook of being the the, the flashy one, the opulent one, the fly guy on the side who's, you know, who's not on the mic, but you know, but you know he's making moves.

And so, and, and, you know, Har- being from Harlem, I do think if you listen to, if you talk to anybody who's from Harlem, especially that comes from the golden era, they'll tell you, you know, you know, "We from Harlem, we from Harlem, you know, we hustlers, we hustlers." And so that's their claim to fame is that we making moves, we're constantly making moves, and we, and we have a lot of mouth, and we have a lot of, uh, uh, you know, we talk a good game.

And so I think you're absolutely right. Dame, um, adapted this persona of the, of the wing man, but the one making moves 'cause, you know, he had the brick phone and everything back in... He was always on the phone and doing things. And then of course, you know, when the sham- to your point, when the champagne started flowing, Dame also became known as the guy, the, the dice shaking, you know, dance guy, and that, you know, that became his claim to fame as well.

What I did notice about him or what I always picked up, a, a energy is there was just something Not endearing, um, not, not endearing about him. There was no warm fuzzies, as much as a warm fuzzy you can get from a, a Harlem hustler, hardcore rap artist at, in the '90s coming up. You know, as much as you can do that.

But there is... We all know that in this industry, in, um, in the recording arts and be- being a celebrity in the recording arts, is that there has to be, uh, there has to be a little bit of likability to you, especially if the, the, if the, the talent is not as, um, as overwhelming

Jay Ray: Visible, apparent.

Sir Daniel: as your, as your natural gravitas to people.

If you don't have the, the gravitas, you g- your talent has to be, like, really over t- over the top and crazy, 'cause then people will be more likely to be like, "Well, he's not really cool, but not that nice of a person, but I can't, I can't deny his talent." And so yes, he, you know,

[00:09:53] Dame's Villain Persona

Sir Daniel: jerk is the word that is always synonymous with Dame, and I think he leaned into that.

He definitely leans into that persona, and what we see is that he, um, he takes on the persona of the bad guy of the group. I guess good... I don't know if you wanna use cop, good cop, bad cop, but, um, he definitely took on that persona of the bad guy of the crew, the one that's willing to do the dirty, you know, the d- to get

Jay Ray: I'ma go into the, I'ma go into the label and I'ma make sure

Sir Daniel: I'ma get my hands dirty and, you know, and make these moves 'cause I'm that dude and I'm, you know, I'm from Harlem. Did I mention I'm from Harlem? So, you know, so that's, so that's the, um, persona that Dame took on, and I guess you would consider that his, the villain arc that he he creates

Jay Ray: he cre- he... Yeah, and, um, so I think what's interesting about this, and I didn't think about this until I was doing the research, and I'm gonna... When I say this to everybody, it's gonna be, like, mind-blowing in a second. But yes, definitely loud energy, confrontational. There are so many industry stories that have been told about Dame Dash going down to Def Jam and just running amok, um, with the s- the people that work there.

You know what I'm saying? And, and to that earlier point, if you are not the guy with the talent, the discernible talent

Sir Daniel: Exactly

Jay Ray: And you're not likable, right? So what, in the story that we've heard, and, and Jay has kind of, uh, uh, hinted at this, I think he's outright said it a couple of times. But Dame becomes a liability, right?

[00:11:48] Dame Becomes a Liability

Jay Ray: So when you're trying to rise to a certain level and you have someone who is working with you who is antagonizing the people who are helping you to make things happen, it becomes more difficult to move because they like, "I don't mind working with you, I like you, but your boy is too much. He's too much."

So by the time Roc-A-Fella, and this is the thing that I think we have to remember, Roc-A-Fella broke up in 2004. So Jay comes out in, with Reasonable Doubt in '96 independently. They're not affiliated with Def Jam yet. That is a priority distributed, uh, uh, uh, record

Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray: That short amount of time later, so that's eight years later, they are already dissolved, like selling Roc-A-Fella to, to Def Jam, and the group is breaking up, right?

But for us, that's 22 years ago that this situation went down. And we have watched Jay go on to do all kinds of other things unrelated to his time at Roc-A-Fella, you know what I'm saying? And to have Dame be in this situation where I feel like he is always stuck in the same time f- frame of life, um, is unfortunate, and it, it calls into question, so a question that we have.

[00:13:32] Quick Transition

[00:13:34] What Does Dame Represent in Hip-Hop?

Jay Ray: Like, what does he represent in hip hop? Uh, or in Black culture? Like, um, what do, y- what do you think, Sir Daniel?

Sir Daniel: I think it's sad, but I do think that Dame kind of brings a seediness to the game, to hip-hop. There's not a whole lot of positive... And I, and the thing, and, and the sad part is, and that I'm sure that he has sat at the table and has brought, you know, many major deals or many major players to the arena of hip-hop. Um, but one could argue that those outliers have been invited in and kind of des- are destroying or have destroyed the art from the inside.

Um, but also, you know, he is a part of, he's a part of history.

Jay Ray: Oh, no doubt

Sir Daniel: he's a part, he's definitely a part of that, that chunk of history. You know, Jay O talks about he, you know, he, he had us, had us, um, gave us anthems for seven summers, for 10 summers. You know, and it's true. It is very, it's very much true.

However, at the same time, you know, this gentleman that he has been associated with cannot, just does not have the best reputation. You know what I also find interesting? I'm glad, um, Knots message mentioned the Streets Is Watching video. Every rhyme that I hear Jay talk about people, um, about the protagonist of his rhyme, right?

It's always having to watch his back against somebody that's directly in his crew. And the whole time I'm thinking to myself, well, that's him.

Jay Ray: Yes.

Sir Daniel: That's who you're talking. So, oh, so this whole time you've been talking about Dame, and I wonder, does Dame know that you've been talking about him the whole time in all these records like Streets Is Watching and, you know, Friend or Foe, all of those records.

You know you're describing Dame, and it's ki- and now in the, in hindsight now we're like, oh, oh

Jay Ray: We can see it, but also Dame is one of those personalities, he doesn't strike me as being particularly self-aware. Because if he was, some of the things that are happening now wouldn't happen. You know what I'm saying? We mentioned Diddy earlier, and I just wanna underscore this really quick. I do think in, uh, in, in, in Dame's, uh, psyche, he saw himself as that. And Diddy and Dame are completely different. You know what I'm saying?

Di- Diddy has a discernible talent that we could identify and we could see and we could, like, put our hands around. And also, up until all of the foolishness that's happened around him recently, he also had a lot of goodwill with other people at the time. I've never heard that about Dame. Yeah, he represented

Sir Daniel: fun.

He absolutely represented fun.

Jay Ray: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So okay, one of the conversations that we had, I don't know how we're gonna get into this tonight. We should hear our meetings.

We go, we go, we go straight for it in our meetings. But was trying to figure out, like, what type of organism is like a Dame Dash in this universe? You know what I'm saying? Like

Sir Daniel: Well,

Jay Ray: and I think we did land it. I think this is right. You know, go ahead, go ahead. Y- go ahead. And then

Sir Daniel: it just came to me.

[00:17:22] Quick Transition

[00:17:24] The Shark and Remora Analogy

Sir Daniel: I know y'all have seen those, um, if you've ever watched National Geographic, if you've any- watched any kind of nature show, and you've seen any of those shows about, um, the predators of the sea.

Jay-Z is definitely a shark. Dame Dash is what they call the remora fish, or what is commonly known as the suckerfish. This is that organism, that fish that attaches themself to the apex predator of the ocean, and they float along, and they, um,

Get rid of the parasites that are around him. They keep the parasites away, like, "Hey, this is my man. Get away. Nah, you not fly.

You not... Get away from here." You know, and they, they, they eat when they, they eat when the, the shark eats, and they're just around. And so they get a reputation like the shark, like, "Oh, well you roll with the shark, so you must be, you must be that dude." So, you know, again, we don't know this man personally.

However, I just get the vision of him being a hanger-on, and not even so much hanging on just to be hanging on. Yes, he brought something to... He definitely had, had to have brought something to the team and to the, um, to the legacy of Roc-A-Fella and to the roster of Roc-A-Fella, uh, you know, getting people on board and whatnot.

But it is that thing where I think he realized that he is not in this, in this arena, everybody is always going to pay attention to the star. And a- and he may not ever admit it, but there has to be a part of him that felt, feels like he is a star. All he'll-- Like, dudes from Harlem think they are the main character, and he c- he clearly has, um, a, a

[00:19:26] Main Character Energy

Sir Daniel: severe case of main character d- disease.

Jay Ray: Oh my God. I, I mean, no notes. I think you are... When Sir Daniel said that in our meeting, I was like, "Yeah, that makes sense." 'Cause let's... Go ahead

Sir Daniel: C- c- okay, I'm sorry. I don't mean to cut you off 'cause like, okay, let's even take Jay out of the,

the

Jay Ray: Let's talk about who he d-

[00:19:50] Dame's Relationships: Aaliyah, Rachel Roy, and Kanye

Jay Ray: let's talk about the people that was on his arm

Sir Daniel: He was always... Okay, so after, you know, him, he was at arm in arm with Jay, then after that kind of fell apart, who did he's arm in arm with? Aaliyah.

And I mean, he rode that until she passed away. He rode that relationship until he passed away because Aaliyah gave him, um, made him g- it polished his image, made him, it made him, softened him up, made him, h- uh, human, e- dare I say even likable because if Aaliyah likes him, then there's gotta be something likable about him.

And so he rode that relationship until unfortunately she passed away in that, well, she died in that plane crash. And then he shortly after that married Rachel Roy, who was a up-and-coming designer. And she, you know, he's, he's breaking into fashion. Here she is, a rising star in fashion, and not just in urban fashion.

Mama is in major department stores, and she's got all these connections. She's the, she's the, the arch- archetype of that girl that is a part of the fashion industry. And so he aligns himself with her. And then along comes this, um, this genius from Chicago, you know, named Kanye, you know, that who's taking the world by storm, and, you know, all he ever wanted was a Roc-A-Fella chain.

And this was the moment that did it for me, Jay. When Kanye is performing, he's, you know, he's performing through the wire and, and getting his life, and this is w- a very important performance. Here comes Dame in the middle of the performance to chain him, to give him his Roc-A-Fella chain. And it's like, "I'm not gonna make this about me, but it's also about me 'cause I've got the chain, and I wanna chain you, and we gonna throw up our diamonds, and I'm standing next to you."

And it reminds me, to bring it to the, to bring it to the present, do y'all remember when Cardi B won her first Grammy, and she was, and she was married to, um, Offset? While this woman is going up to get her first Grammy that she earned on her own, this man took it upon himself to run up there with her. It was kinda that moment.

It was that kinda moment, and it's very indicative of Da- the persona that Dame Dash has, or, and he probably would never admit to it, but this is what I'm getting at from, from what he's shown us from over the years

Jay Ray: Absolutely, and

[00:22:33] Comparing Dame to Kanye

Jay Ray: I'm glad you mentioned Ye because I actually think that Dame is closer in, closer in, in, in personality to Ye than he is to Jay, but he just don't have Ye's talent. If he had a, a, a thimble of that talent, he would be something to deal with, but I think that's the big thing. I think he's actually closer to that.

So I think at the end of the day... So we're now sitting here today Watching this man, watching people put microphones in his face, 'cause apparently he'll do any podcast. If we asked him to come on, he would probably come on. We don't want him on the show. You know? oh '

Sir Daniel: he wouldn't cause, 'cause we're not, we're not real men because we're talking about him.

Jay Ray: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. That's right. He does need us to be... Oh, he would come on just to cuss us out. "So can I finish? Can I finish?"

Sir Daniel: Pause.

Jay Ray: So unfortunately, we are sitting in this moment where people are shoving a microphone in front of this man's face to respond to things that he has nothing particularly important to say about this stuff, and it didn't have to go down like this. He coulda had a different trajectory

if he was different.

But the, the, the, the career of Dame Dash, um, is unfortunately stuck in Roc-A-Fella

Sir Daniel: In Roc-A-Fella mode. I don't know. It, it's really, it's unfortunate, but, um, yeah, you just... I don't know. The, we said at the beginning that this is a cautionary tale, tale

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel: that you just don't wanna be a Dame Dash.

[00:24:27] Transition

[00:24:34] The 'Real Friend' Warning

Sir Daniel: There's a, a creator, um, @homem... I think he's, he's a fashion, uh, content creator, and he was talking, he, he said, "Be careful of the real friend who always keeps it real." And the crux of what he was saying is that be careful of those people in your life that are always jabbing and s- and, and they're taking their jabs at you, but they're c- they're disguising it as constructive criticism

Jay Ray: looking out for you. Yeah,

Sir Daniel: Exactly. And constructive criticism and love. And I think a lot of us, um, have encountered or, or may be encountering those people in our lives now and just don't know it. And we just thought it was a very, very interesting way to look at this, um, this situation because there is no reason for him to be propped up on somebody's camera to talk o- to, to continue to talk about this man and offer criticisms that nobody asked for.

I think Jay is doing a good enough job of digging holes for himself

on his own. He does not need you to point out his flaws and to take digs because the sad part is that you might be making some good points, but nobody's gonna pay attention to what you're saying because the first thing they're gonna say is, "Oh, We're not paying attention to him...

He's a, he's a A-one hater. He, a- and it's actually qui- kind of sad. He has become a punchline. Um, he has become, whether he wants to believe it or not, they're making fun of him, like him trying to recreate his, his dice dance and, you know, doing it much

Jay Ray: on the mic, he's doing a dis, he's doing a diss

Sir Daniel: Yeah. Like, dude,

Jay Ray: and

Sir Daniel: nah, that's not, that's not P, as the young people will say. That's not, that's not your, that's not very Harlem-like. Don't do that. Don't do this to your, um, to what's left of your legacy, Dame Dash. Don't do that.

[00:26:43] Show Close-Out

Jay Ray: Y'all, y'all are so amazing.

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Sir Daniel: Well, listen, like Jay Ray said, we appreciate you, we love you, and like I say every week, in this life, you have a choice.

You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play. I am DJ Sir Daniel

Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray y'all.

Sir Daniel: And this has been Queue Points podcast, dropping the needle on Black music history. We will see you on the next go round.

Jay Ray: Peace, y'all.

[00:27:56] Outro Theme