Is Young Thug Really One of the Greatest Songwriters Ever?

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Sir Daniel: If your lyrics cannot be included in that karaoke catalog and somebody feel with their chest that they can go in front of that crowd and in front of that screen and recite your lyrics word for word, melody for melody, I'm sorry, but that does not cut the mustard for a great songwriter.

Sir Daniel: Good evening, everybody, and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast. I am DJ Sir Daniel

Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III, as Sir Daniel has on his black hats.

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Jay Ray: The New York Times, uh, dropped their greatest living American, that's very important, living American songwriters

Sir Daniel: You got to be on this side of the soil in order to have been considered for this list. And Jay Ray, I'm sorry to cut you off, but every time we were thinking about s- um, songwriters that just did something for us, I was like, "Ooh, what about so... Oh man, they're dead."

Jay Ray: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ooh, what about,

Sir Daniel: So yeah

Jay Ray: Right?

Sir Daniel: And it's like, man, uh, they're either not from here or they're gone.

So yeah, it made you... It really made us think, and th- there's a lot of great songwriters to celebrate

Jay Ray: What I loved about the list, I'ma tell you what got me. When I saw Valerie Simpson's name on this list, I was like, "Oh, they..." was like, "Oh, they, they, they really spent some time on this." And so

Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm

Jay Ray: I looked at the list, I was like, "I'm not mad at this list. I'm not gonna cuss it out." I think that there are people on this list who absolutely deserve to be on it.

So we have Valerie Simpson. Of course, I saw Kendrick Lamar. Um, Missy Elliott was great. Paul Simon, Stevie Wonder. I mean, these are all, Nile Rodgers. I mean,

Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray: th- these are all just brilliant songwriters who, in their own way, have captivated us. So I was into this, uh, list. What were your thoughts?

Sir Daniel: So when I, like you, when I saw a few tho- few of those names, I was like, "Oh. Oh, they... This is, you know, they really..." Like Valerie Simpson, like you said, I was like, "Oh, they really... Somebody on the team is on it." And then I said, "My girl Danyel Smith is,

Then you know you're gonna get, um, you're going to get those things. And, um, Young Jeffrey,

Jay Ray: Yeah

Sir Daniel: Thug is on the list, and the immediate questions that came to my mind were, okay, I get it to an extent because he does represent a, um, a generation.

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel: I just thought, like, if you're sup- if you're on the list and one of your accolades is, is being a great songwriter, I think what makes a great song is its, I don't know, cross-generation appeal, as well as shouldn't the lyrics be legible, or shouldn't I be able to, to easily recognize something and be able to, you know, spit back the lyrics or, or, you know, make it a part of my daily conversation, um, you know, with my friends and just make references to the lyrics at some point or another.

I, I have not been able to do that with any of Young Thug's songs. Not to say that he is not a, you know, that he is not a prime figure to this g- to a generation. I'm not say- I'm not doubting his superstardom. He's clearly a star. Um, I just wonder, like, I c- I know Willie Nelson's songs. I know, you know, Bruce Springsteen songs,

Jay Ray: songs

Sir Daniel: Parton, Aretha Franklin.

Jay Ray: mm-hmm

Sir Daniel: can, we can recite or we can recall a lyric from any of those songs if asked and if we're in the, if we're in a karaoke situation. I... That's it right there. That is

Jay Ray: is.

Sir Daniel: test.

Jay Ray: Yes

Sir Daniel: you cannot be included in a karaoke catalog, if your lyrics cannot be included in that karaoke catalog and somebody feel with their chest that they can go in front of that crowd and in front of that screen and recite your lyrics word for word, melody for melody, I'm sorry, but that does not cut the mustard for a great songwriter

Jay Ray: Hmm. You know what? I'm,

Sir Daniel: Sorry about it.

Not sorry

Jay Ray: I'm, uh, so I'm with what you're saying. I- I'm gonna read what John Caramonica, uh, uh, Caramon- Caramonica wrote about Young Thug.

"In reference to Young Thug, in doing so, he set in motion the remaking of rap music into a sound that's practically post-historical. generations of SoundCloud rap, the multiple personality experimentation of Playboi Carti, even the vocal shards of the hyperpop artists like 100 Gecs," I don't know who that is, "are all attri..."

Sir Daniel: Shards is crazy, but continue. I'm sorry

Jay Ray: yes, "all attributable to Young Thug, who never met a song he wanted to write." And so I, I, I, I think where John is going with that, right, is what we're say- what we say about Thug is, is, is sometimes it's a, it's a feeling, it's a, it's a sound, it's a, it's a melody, but it's not necessarily the words. And I

Sir Daniel: So then

Jay Ray: know, I know, Sir Daniel. But

Sir Daniel: I know my math ain't always up to snuff

Jay Ray: Songwriter is m- is more than lyrics, right? Now, I'm, I'm, I'm not defen- I don't, I don't know no, I don't know enough Young Thug songs but I too, Sir Daniel, was very weird about seeing Young Thug on the list. I feel like they coulda picked somebody else that was Young Thug adjacent that would've fit. they picked Thug.

Sir Daniel: You know what? I could see Jeezy taking that spot

Jay Ray: Hmm, that's fair. you wanna stay in Atlanta, sure

Sir Daniel: or if you wanna stay in Atlanta, or yeah, either Jeezy or Tip because

Jay Ray: Tip first, but yeah

Sir Daniel: those are his fathers,

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel: you know? But that's, that's just me. Um, and you know, I know that there's, there's definitely people out there that don't play about, um, Jeffrey, don't play about Thugger, so enjoy it.

You know, enjoy the lyrics. I'm sure some of y'all will tattoo them on your calf at some point in your life. And when you get older,

Jay Ray: Young

Sir Daniel: when you get older, when you get older, somebody's gonna look at your l- at your calf and say, "Hey,

Jay Ray: Huh?

Sir Daniel: what does that say? It if it ain't about the money? The mon-" Is that what that says?

So yeah, but you know, God bless. God bless. I'm not here to yuck anybody's yum.

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Sir Daniel: I think what we should do now, Jay Ray, is we should list our top three greatest living songwriters. 'Cause you know Queue Point, you know how Queue Points does. We gotta throw our own sauce into it. So Jay Ray, if you please, hit us with your list

Jay Ray: Yeah, so, um, I approached this as a companion to this list. So these are names that I did not see on the list, and I was like, "Huh?" Um,

Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray: well, at least two I was like, "Huh?" And then one I was like, "Ooh, this is a wild card." So let me do my first very surprising omission,

Sir Daniel: Okay

Jay Ray: is Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff, who are both still living.

Sir Daniel: Hmm. Yes. Yes

Jay Ray: the- when you talk about songwriters, right? songwriters that broke through who defined a generation, right? Uh, inspired an entire genre. Disco would not be what it was had Gamble and Huff not did what they were doing in Philadelphia. Um, they were the bridge from Jackson 5 being The Jackson 5 to The Jacksons becoming...

Like, growing up and, and doing something different. They, they came to Philly and, and started working with Gamble and Huff. Um, it just doesn't get any more clear than those two men. So I'ma just run down the hits. So these are the ones I just wrote down that they wrote.

Sir Daniel: Okay.

Jay Ray: Love Train

Sir Daniel: Now

Jay Ray: That We Found Love, Gonna Make You Love Me, which was remade by Diana Ross of The Supremes.

That song goes.

Sir Daniel: Mm.

Jay Ray: Me and Mrs. Jones, If You Don't Know Me By Now, If Only You Knew. Like, that's cross-generational magic. You know what I mean? These are songs that still play today and people go crazy. So I was surprised not to see them on the list, and maybe there's a reason. Maybe they're, maybe they declined to be part of the list.

Who knows, right?

Sir Daniel: Huh?

Jay Ray: you know what I'm saying. I, I don't know, but at the end of the day, I know that, uh, Mr. Gamble and Mr. Huff are still alive, and they should absolutely be on the list. Um, my second ar- uh, artist that I think could have been on this list, and might be a miss is Chuck D, actually.

Yeah, so here's the thing When Chuck emerged with, uh, y- uh, and, and Mark.

Smokey Robinson is definitely on the list, so just so you know.

Sir Daniel: Yeah.

Jay Ray: when Chuck D and Public Enemy emerged, hip-hop a teenager, it was... And, and, and hip-hop was already moving in a harder, more thug, more gangsta direction. It was already beginning to happen. And I argue that Chuck's ascent as a, hip-hop star and ultimately a pop star slowed that down a little bit because he us something to think about.

Writing of pro-Black lyrics and, and putting it into song, but also, uh, crafting along with the rest of The Bomb Squad these, these, these, these, uh, luscious beds of music to sit it on did, I think, open our minds and forced young Black kids to take a step back, listen and learn. And I feel like those lyrics that Chuck wrote so loudly today he absolutely deserves to be on this list.

Um, I think he's, uh, just one of the great American lyricists. Um, and so definitely Chuck D. And my last choice is Coleman. Phonte of The Foreign Exchange, Phonte of Little Brother. So Tae is in a class of his own. There are very few men rap singers. You know what I mean? He's the only one I can think o- I mean, it's like him and Drake, and Drake wouldn't be Drake without Phonte having been Phonte. Um, and Drake doesn't even do the singing thing like Phonte really sings. Like, that's his thing. But more than that, lyrically Tae is one of the most emotion-filled and complex lyric writers. So over the years he's been able to write men's emotions

Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm

Jay Ray: in rap lyrics and in, in, in, in R&B songs in a way that I think is commendable. I think he's one of those artists that we will listen to 20 years from now and be like, that's clever," or, "That's a really great lyric," or, "That makes me feel really good." Like, you can tell he studies songwriters, um, and he's okay with putting it all out on the line. And so my three are, that should be on the list are Gamblin' Huff, Chuck D, and Phonte.

Those are my three. Um, what about you, uh, uh, Sir Daniel?

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Sir Daniel: All right. So, um, love your list. Very, very important people that you listed. Um, so I'm going to start, and I promise you all this first person isn't, um, it's not because he's a friend to the show. It's not because we know him. It's none of those things. But I'm putting Kipper Jones on the list strictly on the strength that he...

On the strength of his career

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel: and how his songwriting abilities has, has taken him through different eras, right?

And has l- literally given him new life on different levels. And, you know, I don't even ne- need to name the song, but one of those songs is iconic. So the other day I was h- I was thinking to myself, having a conversation with myself, and I was thinking about Brandy & Monica and the tour, and what that song means to, to their careers.

And I just, this one thought just kept ringing in my head. I was like, is, is the b- is, um, you know- Well, for s- for Brandy specifically, "I Wanna Be Down" is one of those songs that it is... It's become an American standard.

When you, when his name is brought up to other singer-songwriters, producers, "Oh man, yeah, Kip," you know. And I'm sure, dollars to, I bet dollars to donuts that there are singer-songwriters that are like, "Man, I wish I could've gotten a from Kipper Jones," you know? Vanessa Williams, God bless her, like her career, I'm talk- when you can breathe, when your lyrics can actually bring new life to somebody's career,

Jay Ray: Yeah

Sir Daniel: that says something.

So I, that's why I'm inducting Kipper Jones into our list

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm

Sir Daniel: of these greatest Am- um, living American songwriters. Um, so I'm t- let's see. I had something else written down here for my next one, and then I had this one that I thought was a glaring omission, and it fits both. I nominate Brian Alexander Morgan

Jay Ray: Good choice

Sir Daniel: And my only argument is I will present SWV's It's About Time.

I will put that right in front of you and say that's it. That's it right there. That is Brian, I, and I know he's done other stuff, but It's About Time is, to me is his magnum opus. I know that it's, it's something that happened early in the c- in their careers, and, you know, we talk, we think that, you know, you have to have, like, a series of points to be able to point to a series of works in order to say, "Well, this makes you a great songwriter."

That album, to me, um, speaks to m- a generation. I think it speaks to even, it speaks to other generations after me. You know? Again, that's a s- the sign of great songwriting. Um, the way that if I'm just gonna, you know, just take "Weak" for instance, the way that "Weak" sat on the charts for almost two years,

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel: and again, it's sung at, at every single life experience that you can think of, from prom to weddings to karaoke, barbecues, even downtown.

I mean, at... Those are things, it's ac- people sing downtown. Those things are, that's what makes a great American album to me. And, and I know that that's, that album is from last century, but I think it still transcends time. I still think it transcends time, and Brian... And plus Brian Alexander Morgan is not talked about enough, in my opinion.

Jay Ray: Agreed

Sir Daniel: I just don't think so. I... And I think w- about the way that the songs were structured and, you know, the, the, the melodies, everything, it just all, all works. And I think he is the, he is the beginning of another lineage of modern R&B songwriters. So Brian Alexander Morgan is on my list. Okay, third one. Let's see.

Wendy and Lisa

Jay Ray: Ooh, good choice

Sir Daniel: And just when I think about, you know, coming from the camp that they came from, you don't get to be in the presence of greatness if you're not that great as well. Um, there are still, they, you know There's still stories to this day. They, you know, people still look to them for their songwriting capabilities, whether separate or together.

Um, it's just legend. It's just the mythology behind the two of them coming together to create classics. It's just, you know, I, I think, and that if I'm not mistaken, I don't think that there is another, um, woman duo that comes to mind that if, if, correct me if I'm wrong, Jay Ray, that comes to mind that, you know, is a, you know, could fall into this category of great songwriters like Wendy and Lisa.

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Sir Daniel: There are other people on my list, and I'm going to mention them because we're gonna talk a- just talk about people that we were shocked weren't on the list, that aren't necessarily a part of our list, but people that we thought, we were like, "Hmm, that's kind of a glaring omission

Jay Ray: we gonna do some extras? I got e- I got a, I got at least two extras

Sir Daniel: Yeah. So that was, so that was my list. That was my list, y'all. Uh, let me know what you think about that. But Jay Ray, okay, what was a glaring omission for you? And it, you know, just on the

Jay Ray: uh,

Sir Daniel: strength of the

Jay Ray: is the, uh, so interestingly enough, um, this wasn't a glaring omission

Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray: as much as it was, I think, a missed opportunity. I think Angela Winbush is one of the greatest

Sir Daniel: Yeah! Yeah.

Jay Ray: Angela Winbush, when you, when you talk about, once again, like, uh, songs that define a generation, everything that was happening in the early 1980s with the Janet stuff and all the stuff that she was doing with René, but then into her solo career, even into the '90s with her then husband, and really revitalizing the Isley Brothers' career.

We give R., we give R. Kelly a lot,

Sir Daniel: Hmm.

Jay Ray: Winbush was the one who produced the majority of the Mission to Please album, and we don't give her that. And so I

Sir Daniel: That's a word

Jay Ray: yeah, I just think she's one of those songwriters that we don't give enough to because not only You know, she's that rare thing. Meli'sa Morgan is like that.

They're that rare woman in the studio who is not just crafting their own songs, but producing

Sir Daniel: Interesting. Yeah

Jay Ray: well, and she just deserves that shine. So she was the one i- that I was, like, tossing up. It was actually between her and Chuck. I landed

Sir Daniel: Okay

Jay Ray: but I was like, "Maybe it's Angela." But I just wanted to mention Angela Winbush as another one who deser- uh, uh, it's a missed opportunity.

She deserves to be considered with the greats. She's d- that girl got hits

Sir Daniel: No arguments over here. You are... Wow, I can't believe I forgot about Angela Winbush. So, okay, so a glaring c- when I say glaring omission, I realize that these lists also take into consideration, um, where you, where you sit on the chart, how long you sat on the chart, you know, how many records you sold. And I was really surprised that Linda Perry was not on this list.

Jay Ray: was surprising actually,

Sir Daniel: That surpri-

Jay Ray: real visible right now

Sir Daniel: She's super visible. Um, she's viral now because one of her songs is, is used on, is a TikTok, you know, song. And, but she's written some really great iconic pop songs for that generation of pop divas that came along in the early, the late 2- '90s, early 2000s. Like your Pinks, your Christina Aguileras.

Like if you were a part of that class, you had to have a Linda Perry song in your catalog on your album so you could sell a couple records, because Linda Perry was gonna make you a great song. And so i- go ahead

Jay Ray: No, no, no, I, you, you just, uh, sparked this. 'Cause you know, we had the conversation, so prior to this, we were talking about the fact of, you know, Diane Warren be schlocky, but you knew in the '90s that if your album

Sir Daniel: had to have a Diane Warren song

Jay Ray: Warren. Perry is kinda like the 2000s version of Diane Warren.

She gave the young girls that

Sir Daniel: you were a, a, a seasoned diva, you were gonna have a Diane Warren song. If you were a young pop diva, you're gonna have a Linda Perry. Exactly. So yes, so Linda Perry just popped up for me, and I was like, "Wow, they did not mention Linda Perry." And two quick ones, B Cox and Charlene Keys

That Southern Hummingbird debut album, I mean, really took me through, took me through there and, um, really just meant something to me in that stage of my life. And so it's just one, that's just a, you know, a, um, a sentimental pick for me.

But, uh, but she's a great songwriter, Charlene Keys. And B. Cox,

Jay Ray: Yeah.

Sir Daniel: R&B, especially for the dudes, come on, you can't not talk about B. Cox.

Since we're in this R&B lane, this male R&B lane,

we know that on the low y'all are still playing that man's records

Jay Ray: know

Sir Daniel: because I seen foot- I've seen footage at y'all barbecues, in the barbershop.

Y'all be playing that man's records on, on the low . Um, even your, at your auntie's, um, repass, somebody was playing "Step in the Name of Love." We know, and I get it.

And I don't know what, there is a gorilla grip that the remix to Ignition has on you all,

Jay Ray: And I

Sir Daniel: and it needs to be studied

Jay Ray: I need it to stop.

Sir Daniel: If I hear a toot-toot

Jay Ray: Nope.

Sir Daniel: a beep-beep

Jay Ray: And I get, and it's catchy, but I remember one of the Jive Record executives, this was I believe a white man. Like, this is a white man that said, "Well, he played us the remix to Ignition, we loved the song, but there was a line in it that was in reference to an underage girl, and we said, 'You can't say that.' And so he took it out."

Am I wrong? Am I misremembering this? I might be. B- I, uh, re- it was... Listen, uh, Surviving R. Kelly was a long time ago. But so now every time I hear that song come up, and I will say radio stations in Philadelphia really don't play that man at all. Like, I've heard it in mixes, so like, you know, Friday night, they at the club.

I've heard it in that situation. But in terms of, like, regular rotation, I haven't heard him at all. That was the New York Times' 30 greatest

Sir Daniel: Check it out

Jay Ray: American songwriters. Y'all should check it out.

If you can see our faces and hear our voices, subscribe to the show. Uh, that would really, uh, help us out. And, uh, share the show with your friends, family, colleagues. Visit our website at queuepoints.com. Become a member.

Check us out on Substack and shop our store at queuepoints.com. We appreciate y'all. We love y'all.

Sir Daniel: We absolutely do, and like I say every week, in this life you have a choice. You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play. I am DJ Sir Daniel

Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray, y'all

Sir Daniel: And this has been Queue Points podcast, dropping the needle on Black music history. We will see you on the next go-round. Peace, y'all.

Jay Ray: Peace.