Beyond "Fool of Me": Celebrating Meshell Ndegeocello's Trailblazing Career

Episode Transcript

*DISCLAIMER: Transcripts are created using AI, and may not accurately represent the content exactly as presented. Transcripts are provided as a courtesy to our listeners who require them.

[00:00:00] How To Support Queue Points
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Jay Ray: Hey, what's up? Good people. It's Jay Ray, the cohost of Queue Points. And I wanted to come to you because there are two really important ways that you can support our show. One is by subscribing to it, wherever you listen to, or watch your podcast. Queue Points is pretty much everywhere. The other thing that you can do is you can visit us on Apple podcasts.

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We're always appreciative of you supporting Queue Points. We thank you so much for all that you've done for us so far and enjoy the show.

[00:00:50] Intro Theme (Music by Danya Vodovoz)
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[00:01:21] Welcome to Queue Points Podcast
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DJ Sir Daniel: Greetings and welcome back to another episode of Queue Points Podcast. I am DJ Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III. Good evening folks.

DJ Sir Daniel: Guess what, Jay Ray? 

[00:01:34] Join the Queue Points Family
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DJ Sir Daniel: They not like us because we are the number one podcast, according to the, to the latest numbers that have come out, you know, we're doing the thing and we have nobody else to think, but you listener. Matter of fact, Jay Ray, tell them how they could be a part of the, the Queue Points party and just being a wonderful success.

Jay Ray: Yo, absolutely. So thank you all so much for, yes, that is absolutely right. We are number one on the feed spot. 25 best black music podcast you should be listening to in 2024 and like DJ Sir Daniel said, it's because of all of you. So because of you being here, hearing our voices, whether you're hearing us or you're watching us, whatever you are doing.

You should subscribe. So if it's your first time here, welcome. We so happy you here. If you've been here before, thank you. We so happy you here to make sure that you subscribe, hit the notification bell if there is one, so you can stay up with us, visit our website, Queue Points. com. You can join our newsletter.

You can read our magazine. That is where we have a whole bunch of information that Is, um, additional to the Q point show. 

[00:02:43] Spotlight on What's Poppin' Penny?"
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Jay Ray: Most recently, we have an article over there featuring, uh, Tony Kennedy of what's popping penny. And, uh, earlier this month, what's popping penny was a sponsor of the show. And we talked to Tony about, um, her show what's popping penny.

They have a Juneteenth episode that you need to check out. Um, so I'm, uh, there's something special. So Daniel, I want to tell you about that episode, cause I don't know if you know this. But. Make sure you go subscribe, do that thing. And also if you want to support Queue Points, visit our store, store. Queue Points. com.

You can buy merch, you can buy mugs, you can buy all the things, right? Here's what I want to tell you, sir, Daniel. So cousin, her first acting gig is in what's popping penny. My cousin Brooklyn plays Nori in Tony's show.

DJ Sir Daniel: Shout out to Brooklyn. That's a wonderful, no, that's a wonderful, wonderful opportunity. That show is a gem. Um, I watched the interview of you and miss Tony and her enthusiasm and her love is just, it radiates. when she speaks and the authenticity in which she does her work is felt and I really do believe that that show What's Poppin Penny is going to be life changing for a new generation.

Um, you know, a generation that these kids needed. Hopefully the, you know, The generation after Z will really have it together, or at least they'll be emotionally sound. And we'll owe it to people like Miss Toni and West Poppin Penny. So I'm super proud of you for rocking that interview. And I'm super proud of like what she's doing.

I love that movement.

Jay Ray: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, man. 

[00:04:36] Shoutout to Fit 360
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Jay Ray: Um, also shout out to fit 360. I'm rocking my fit 360 shirt fit. 360 is in Miami Circle in the Buckhead neighborhood of Atlanta. If you are looking for a gym, you should hop over there. If you want to meet the owner, he was on Queue Points. So we our first live at fit 360 and you could go back and listen to that show.

Um,

DJ Sir Daniel: It's coming up on the year.

Jay Ray: It's coming up. Isn't that crazy how it's coming up on a year? But yeah. Fitzroy Smith, uh, the owner of Fit 360. So go over there. Shout out to Fitz and Fonda and all the people over there at Fit 360

DJ Sir Daniel: I know that's right. Well, speaking of slow jams can heal us and you need to go cop you a shirt, Jay Ray, we're going to talk about a new, a new experience that just popped up thanks to the people over at NPR. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:05:32] Meshell Ndegeocello's NPR Tiny Desk Performance
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DJ Sir Daniel: I don't think we saw it coming because some of the NPR tiny desks have been, well, have been announced ahead of time, but we got the surprise of a lifetime when we saw that Meshell Ndegeocello was being featured on, uh, NPR tiny desk performance.

I love it. Meshell Ndegeocello. This guy right here, Jay Ray is a Meshell Ndegeocello Stan. And we had to, I mean, it was the perfect idea. It was like, Oh, Meshell is in the news. Let's let's talk about her. Let's talk about her contributions to this industry to modern music and the, I guess, and the, the, the, um, legacy that she's carrying on of musicianship and women led bands.

She's a bass, she's a bass guitarist. I mean, you name it. She's done it. 

[00:06:36] A Deep Dive into Meshell Ndegeocello's Career
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DJ Sir Daniel: Tonight's, um, subject of course, what this episode subject of course is Meshell Ndegeocello. And Jerry, when I text you a matter of fact, I think I shot you the team, the screenshot, or it was a link to just a post a quick post of her there.

What was your initial reaction when you were like, Meshell has a tiny desk performance?

Jay Ray: Um, I,

DJ Sir Daniel: like that.

Jay Ray: yeah, so because, so my immediate thought was, when am I going to have time to listen to the Meshell tiny desk? Right. I needed to, because I needed to be able to sit with it and baby, you know how my life is right where there's a lot going on. And when there's a Meshell. Something you need to have time to sit with it.

So that was my first thing was like, Oh my God, Meshell has a tidy desk. When am I going to have time to like sit with it? And, um, I, you know what? And I will also say, I was excited for me because I love Meshell, but I was like nervous too, because I'm like, I need people to understand how important she is.

And I don't know if you can get that in 25 minutes. You know what I'm saying? Like, I was also like, I mean, yes, but

DJ Sir Daniel: You felt protective of her and you're

Jay Ray: protective of

DJ Sir Daniel: this, she's a gem. And if you don't know about her, you need to know about her and you're going to get what you need in this performance. And you need to clap when they say clap. That's exactly how you were. That's exactly how he was behind the scenes.

Kind

Jay Ray: you are explaining exactly how I was behind the scenes. 

[00:08:26] The Impact of Meshell's Music
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Jay Ray: But, um, I was, So Meshell, to that point, Sir Daniel, she is the person that I have seen live the most. It was a toss up between Meshell and The Roots. Um, I've seen, I don't know how many times it's been now, it's more than five, less than 10.

So it's somewhere in between five and 10. Um, but of course I saw her live last year, um, at uh, the Art More Music Hall in Philly or in Ardmore actually. And what was dope about that show is we got introduced. uh, to her band. Like she has an all new band. Um, she for the last four years or so since ventriloquism has been referring to Meshell Ndegeocello as a band, yeah, which is kind of like Sade.

Exactly. Um, and, and, and the way I've heard her kind of talk about it is because she is at this point. In her musical journey and in her life where she is grateful for, she just loves being able to play with musicians. And she feels like these folks, um, are taking her to new places. She even said that in the tiny desk.

She's like, Oh my God, where I'm able to go now is in a new place. Right. And I will tell you when I saw her last year, It literally felt like we went up in a spaceship to the blackest spaciest place we could go. And then at the end, it was like, okay, we have to land now back here on earth. But for that period of time, she took us up into the spaceship.

And, um, this tiny desk felt like that too.

DJ Sir Daniel: You know, I, I think, What you described is an experience that fans of a handful of artists experience that other worldliness that they feel, um, you know, being transported to another planet, you know, not since like, um, even back when parliament, George Clinton and parliament literally had a spaceship come down and, and, you know, I think it's only a handful of people that can do that with their artistry these days, and Meshell is definitely one of them.

And I think what lends to that is her, is kind of her niche, her niche reach. She's not, she's not, she's not super mainstream.

Jay Ray: Mm mm. Hehehehehehe.

DJ Sir Daniel: know about her, the cool kids know about Meshell Ndegeocello, you know what I'm saying? So, and so being a part of that audience and being that in that audience, I, I have no doubt was otherworldly.

I'm trying to think if I've ever seen her live. And I want to say, I don't think she was a featured artist. I think it might've been one of those, like at a funk jazz cafe. I've been hearing. And Atlanta where she just kind of popped up and she got on stage for a hot second, but you know, you're not getting the whole show,

Jay Ray: Right. Hehehehehehe.

DJ Sir Daniel: I was, I was very taken aback when I listened to her do a new, a rendition of dreadlocks.

No, no, no. Outside your

Jay Ray: your door.

DJ Sir Daniel: Outside your door. I was immediately transported. Remember that episode where we talked about, about songs that we included on our, on a sex tape. Yeah. Outside your door is definitely one of those.

Jay Ray: Of course! Hehehehehehe.

DJ Sir Daniel: was, and it was like a no brainer, but she sounds exactly the same.

She sounds exactly the same in that pocket. Um, she's, it almost feels like she's whispering directly in your

Jay Ray: I am waiting.

DJ Sir Daniel: You know what I'm saying? That's exactly it. And. I don't know. That takes a level of intimacy. And I think that might be the key to her. Her voodoo over us is that level of intimacy that she has, that we all seem to experience when we, when we allow her into our heads.

Jay Ray: No, I think you have, um, tapped in. 

[00:13:13] Meshell's Influence and Legacy
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Jay Ray: She's also the type of artist when you see her live, um, she is taking in the music one, she works with stellar musicians. We're going to talk about that in a second. Um, She's taking in the music and there's almost like a channeling. What I love about this current moment, even when you look at the tiny desk, Meshell's bass was in front of her, but she didn't touch the bass one time.

She has a, she had a bass player there with her. Um, and she's able to embody this music, take it in, give it that Meshell, that Meshell thing whenever she needed to give it. But. She let, um, Justin and Kenita lead really the vocals. So, just so that folks know, uh, uh, Justin Hicks and, uh, Kenita Miller Hicks, they're a husband and wife duo.

They have a trio called The Hot Plates. That's H A W T.

DJ Sir Daniel: hot

Jay Ray: Hot plates and they have been working with Meshell now for the last several years. And Meshell, even when she was here in Philly, even there on the tiny desk, she talks about very deliberately that she's thankful for them being next to her doing this work.

But going back to what you were saying around her intimacy, um, I feel like because she is such kind of, uh, uh, the music is all up in her. Um, that's what we're feeling like it's churning through her and she's able to deliver it. And, um, so I'm happy the tiny desk happened. It's a beautiful, uh, uh, experience.

So what folks are getting by the way is you got, uh, two songs, three songs. from the upcoming No More Water, which is the gospel of James Baldwin. That's the, that's the album that's coming out on Baldwin's birthday, um, August 2nd. And, um, so we got three songs from that project. And then we got a song from her last album, the Omnicore Real Book.

And then of course we got Outside Your Door from her first album. Um, and so I think it's time to talk about Let's get into a little bit of the history. So Daniel, I think this is perfect. Um,

DJ Sir Daniel: Absolutely.

Jay Ray: Yeah, shout out to folks in the chat. We see folks in the chat. I see Wani. I don't know much about sports. Thank you so much for being here.

We are so excited to have this discussion. Of course, Mark McPherson who saw Meshell in Cincinnati. Yeah, she's a whole thing in November. Yeah. 

[00:16:05] The Evolution of Meshell's Sound
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Jay Ray: Um, so history real quick, Sir Daniel. So, cause I'm curious to know how you came to experience her at first, but before we got Before we got to see her right in 1993, um, Meshell, uh, was raised in DC.

That's where all of that, that's where all that funk come from. I know that's where it comes from. You know what I

DJ Sir Daniel: She got that stank on her

Jay Ray: She got that stank on her from one playing in go go bands in DC. Um, that base is deep within up within her. And, um, so during the 80s, she cut her teeth kind of playing locally in DC. And is a multi instrumentalist, but of course we came to know her primarily as a bass player.

Um, and that was interesting and rare because the only other Women that I remember playing bass, uh, Climax, you know, of course you had a woman on bass there and then

DJ Sir Daniel: Irby.

Jay Ray: Joyce Fenderella Irby, and then a taste of honey, and then, yeah, and then Meshell, um,

DJ Sir Daniel: What about Patrice Russian? Didn't she

Jay Ray: Russian would hop on the bass. As well. So there were few and far between in terms of women who would, you know, rock out on the base that I remembered as a kid. But you mentioned, um, earlier dreadlocks. So 1992 Meshell became one of the first artists signed to Madonna's newly created Maverick record label.

And this was a big deal. So, um, Meshell, she signed this artist, Meshell Ndegeocello, who released an album called Plantation Lullabies. And we got to experience her ball head and all on this track called Dreadlock. And this is in 1993. This was not, nobody was doing that. in 93. No one looked like her.

Nobody was doing this kind of music then. And I remember being transfixed by the idea of it. The music was beautiful and then the imagery was beautiful. I'm curious, Sir Daniel, how did you come to experience Meshell for the first time?

DJ Sir Daniel: So I was, and this is the importance of record stores. I was introduced to Meshell Ndegeocello by, um, a gentleman, a young man. And I, God, I wish I could remember their names. I think the owner of the store, his name was Rob. And It was a white guy and he had, there was a younger black gentleman that worked there.

And I want to say it was called beach street or city beat, something like that. It was in downtown Atlanta. So, and I would constantly go there in between classes. Cause I was attending Georgia state university. And, um, he, he, You know, I'm a regular. So of course he's like going to put me on the stuff that's new all the time, right?

Or if he had promos, he would always give me promos. And so he was just like, Hey, um, you need to check this out. Uh, I think she, I don't know if it's, he was like, I'm not certain if she's hip hop or not, but I think she is cause she kinda, she kinda looks like a rapper. And that was because the, the promo shot of her, she was wearing locs.

Jay Ray: Yep.

DJ Sir Daniel: And she, it was very, it was a very nineties aesthetic, you know, the, the plaid, the oversized plaid shirt, you know, hip hop and grunge kind of intertwined as far as her aesthetic was concerned. And so I was thinking, oh, okay, so this might be a new form of hip hop. And then he was like, yeah, she's on Madonna's label.

And that, that raised my eyebrows. I was like, oh. And I was like, okay, cool. Yeah, I heard about Madonna starting a label, and then I was like, Hmm, so Madonna's putting out black artists. Okay, so it didn't take much convincing. At that age, I was, you know, it didn't take much convincing for me to try a new artist at that age.

So I copped the idea. Cause single, yes. Cause single ladies and gentlemen, and it was dreadlock and, uh, outside your door and outside your door was the song that really, really captivated me because of the piano loop, um, that we will discuss later on the infamous piano loop. And, um, I was just taken in by.

That voice that we talked about earlier, the, the intimacy that she created between, you know, your ears and the air and your headphones. And I was like, what is this? What, you know, and this was, I mean, this was like at the burgeoning, the beginning of the, the, you know, the resurgence of, of the poetry scene.

So, you know, she was speaking in that, in that poetic cadence that, you know, all the poets on the scene were speaking in. And I felt like I was at the Patty hut or at the Apache. And at the end of every course I would snap my fingers. And it was just, it was really dope. And for somebody like me at that age, who was very, you know, hip hop driven Jay Ray, I was.

It took a lot for me to slow down, to find something to slow down and to make me think at that age, I was just go, go, go, you know, and that's what hip hop provided me, but Meshell came along and she made me, she made my heartbeat slow down and she literally came and put her hand on my heart and, and spoke into my ears and was like, listen to this, listen to what I'm saying.

This is what somebody. Can make you feel or this is how you can make somebody feel and it was that sharing of the energy and the intimacy that really appealed to me. And I was like, okay, I'm digging this. I'm into this. But then They were still trying to, I guess, in a way to try and sell her was still trying to interject her into like hip hop conversations.

I remember several into several articles about her in the source and vibe about her, her rap influence. Because anybody that was doing spoken word back then was automatically lumped into, into hip hop. And you know, at that point we also had Diggable Planets who were, you know, who were doing their thing.

Uh, Tribe Called Quest had already pioneered that hip hop, poetic, jazzy style. Everybody was, uh, at that point was sampling jazz loops. And so here comes, uh, Um, Meshell and she's playing everything like you said, and so she, so I think that lent her to, um, like the Lilith tours. And so she started popping up on these mainstream platforms like MTV because of her involvement in the Lilith tour.

So then it was like, Oh yeah, we really got to watch Meshell at that point. And then it was just like a, a train that just took off.

Jay Ray: You I so one things that you mentioned that's so interesting and I want to highlight this here because I think it's important Um is that intentionality to behind the plantation lullabies because one of the artists that you mentioned is a tribe called quest Meshell was absolutely heavily influenced by tribe and The mixer on Plantation Lullabies was none other than Bob Power, who did all the Tribe Called Quest stuff, who's name checked, Bob Power, you there?

Yeah? And, you know, I dressed my face in temple, make my shit sound clear, right? So, Bob Power was also working on the Meshell album, right? So that, that, that, That sound that we get from that album is because that sauce That was in that tribe stuff is also in plantation lullaby. Um And so I do remember that too where they were definitely interjecting her Into the hip hop conversation and she fit easily.

Um but There was also this other thing that I couldn't put my finger on about her If that's your boyfriend kind of I think explained well one would you listen to the album its entirety explains it But even if you watch the visuals for if that's your boyfriend it kind of explained it to Where it was just this intense musicality of Yes, she's rapping, but it's also po.

It's more poetry than rap.

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[00:26:16] "If That's Your Boyfriend" and the Evolution of Meshell's Sound
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DJ Sir Daniel: and it's funny you bring up if that's your boyfriend. So I think Here is where the media starts playing up on people's sexuality and the recording industry is like, well, maybe, maybe I don't know if Madonna had anything to do with it or the fact that she was, um, signed to a person like Madonna, who does not shy away from controversy and was like, okay, clearly.

This woman presents a certain way. She's not, she's not wearing, you know, a pointed bra. She's not, she doesn't have the long hair. You know, she's doing the exact opposite of what a lot of women were doing at that time. And so song and that video in particular, if that's your boyfriend, it definitely started, it was like a little, she was sending out clues.

If you ask me, it was definitely dropping breadcrumbs to like, um, y'all, I don't know if y'all are picking up what I'm putting down here. If y'all, if y'all get it, you know, but I think she was sending out a bat signal. To the, to the, to the queer kids and to everybody who can appreciate all subcultures and that she is not mainstream and that this song is, she's really playing on the fact.

And I think she said in her interviews, I did this song on purpose because a lot of people, um, looked at me and assumed that I could not, um, take somebody's man. I think there was something or a conversation she was having and they were like, Oh, you know, and she was like, Oh, really? You think? And so she's like, yeah, I present this way, but I can't, I still got the juice to pull your man, even though I really don't want them.

You know, that's just, it's a play. He's a play thing. And so she started playing with that a lot and the imagery and, and it was like, okay, this woman's different. And I think she, she's, she's not afraid or she's not shying away from controversy. And little did we know an album later. She was going to say she was going to speak the quiet truth out loud more than ever at that point.

Jay Ray: absolutely. And Mark is saying that exact same thing. That is absolutely true. I, I feel like, so for me, Peace Beyond Passion, which is Meshell's second album, uh, picture right there for those who are watching. Um, Helped me to navigate my coming out personally. Um, I remember I was working in the studio at the time.

So this is 1996. I was working in the studio and One of the most beautiful things I would love to do, baby, is to test the album. You will, I will put that CD on in the studio speakers in the control room and I would let that thing play. So I needed, I hear all the things, you know, and like with, it was different than the first record in that she did the Prince thing of spirituality social commentary, sexuality, all in one, all in one thing, right?

So you were going to get all of it and you felt it and it was in the, it was in the music. And so I want to, I want to mention with this album too, who's on this, right? So of course there's Meshell, there's David Gamson, who also produced her first album. Um, Wendy Melvoin of Wendy and Lisa. is on this album.

Um, Billy, the Billy Preston is playing on this album. He's playing organ on this record. So you get that kind of church happening on this album. Alan Cato, who goes on to work with her for another couple of years, is on this record. I think he first showed up here. Um, And this album is the album where it's like, I'm going to say the thing, like you said, I'm going to say the thing out loud.

And not only am I going to say it, our first single and music video, y'all, I, it blows my mind every time. Sir, Daniel, where yes, uh, Leviticus, cause we can't say the F word. It's the first single from Peace Beyond Passion and they did a video that is beautiful and heartbreaking at the same time about a young queer man, um, who takes his own life.

It's a lot.

DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah.

Jay Ray: And the story is so powerful and the video is powerful and the song is powerful and it's like, girl. Wow, that's what we're doing and that's what she did.

DJ Sir Daniel: That time. Let's see where, like you said, we're in 96. So there's an uptick in Visibility, you know, we had the, what was his name? Matthew Shepard. We had that incident. Um, you also had, uh, Ellen coming out on television. There was a, it was like a zeitgeist

Jay Ray: Yep.

DJ Sir Daniel: of all these different, um, monumental moments in media for these media personalities to talk about sexuality.

Uh, frequently, openly and frequently. And, you know, here comes Meshell, who's probably, probably at that time was like one of the lone voices, one of the lone black voices,

Jay Ray: hmm. Yeah.

DJ Sir Daniel: wasn't a whole hell of a lot of black people speaking up. And I imagine, I don't know if that did anything to her career. Cause Meshell's relationship with the black community. Is a special one. I don't think it's ever flailed or had any issues. I don't think she's ever received any kind of backlash and that I don't, I don't know if that's a, what that's a Testament to, it's probably just a Testament to the work

Jay Ray: Mm hmm.

DJ Sir Daniel: and people just dig dope artistry regardless of who is coming

Jay Ray: Yeah.

DJ Sir Daniel: so to this day, um, once.

[00:33:13] Navigating Fame and Artistic Integrity
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We get into that space where she's, you know, she's grown as an artist and then we stopped seeing her as much,

Jay Ray: hmm.

DJ Sir Daniel: which I think for whatever reason, I think a lot of artists go through that phase where they, they get this popularity and they're like scorching hot. And then there's some things about the industry.

It's like a story. Everybody has the same story. They have, they find out things about the industry that they absolutely despise. And then they just retreat for a while.

Jay Ray: Yeah, you know, I don't, I know that they're I can't speak for sure, for sure, but I'm sure there were personal things. Um, there are some stories I remember reading at the time. So there's relationship stuff. There's personal stuff. There's all of this stuff, right? That gets into the mucky muck. Um, and also I don't know that you can be an artist like Meshell Ndegeocello and be really in the limelight like that.

I don't think it works like, I don't think it could work like that because she is such a consummate creator. Every single project now she, this is I think it was her 12th album that came out last year, but if you really break it down, she has like side, there's probably like 14 Meshell projects. You know what I'm saying?

Cause there's like official Meshell albums and then there's like other stuff. Um, I don't know that you can be her and create and be in the limelight and be yourself Because what we end up seeing is The next album is bitter right there right up right up there um, which So Fool of Me was on the Love and Basketball soundtrack.

That song became just a Quiet Storm classic as well. But that album is about pain and love. Um, but like the icky side, like the side of love that people don't like talking about. This album covers Produced by Greg, uh, Craig Street, who at that point was. producing every jazz. If you want it to be an interesting artist or whatever, Craig Street was probably producing your joint because he had a like country thing, but it was kind of hip hoppy a little bit.

It was a very interesting sound. Um, and so I don't know that you can be that. And then after that we get Cookie, which was her black album. She needed to make a black album and Which is a great record. Oh my God. It's such a great record. You know who's on the remix on the, the pocket book remix? Uh, uh, uh, red man is on there.

Um, uh, so she tried to get a whole bunch of other people for that record. There's this lore and story of cookie, but people wouldn't do the album. Um, and her last official major label album was Uh, Comfort Woman, I think. Um, I think Dance of the Infidel may have came out on some major label, but it might have been like a small thing, but Comfort Woman is actually I think my second favorite Meshell record, but it was her final Maverick album and that was all like reggae inspired.

stuff. But that was about love in the most beautiful sense of love. So you have bitter on one side, which is like, this is going bad and comfort woman on the other side, which is like, this is no, I want to be your, like, I want to be your, your comfort woman. Right. Um, so point is, I just don't know that you could be Meshell and be in the limelight.

I think you, I think she needed that time to be who she is.

DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah.

[00:37:27] Meshell Ndegeocello's Hip Hop Connections
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I think that's part of the, the, the drawback of genius is like, you're, you're so super sensitive to everything that you have to retreat to save yourself at times, but I want to go back. So you mentioned red man on the remix, like Meshell's, um, relationship, even though she wasn't like a straight up rapper, she definitely had a relationship with hip hop.

DJ Sir Daniel: And, um, definitely we saw that. And the freedom, um, the freedom, which was a theme song to Panther, the Panther soundtrack freedom was originally written by joy and produced by Dallas Austin. Um, and I think about that song, that song and that video was such an anomaly because it's never been done since then, where they gathered, like.

Literally every major female recording artists at the time. And I think even some underground artists were in the video, at least, and a part of that recording. But there, so remember there were two versions of the song. There was the, the vocalist version, the R& B version, the singing version. And then there was a hip hop version with.

Like MC Lyte, Yo Yo Latifah, Left Eye, um, I'm trying to think who else, Left Eye, uh, Patra was on the hook, Patra was on the hook, and, oh, then of course, Meshell Ndegeocello. She was on the singer version, but, she got on there and she spit, A rhyme book in her poetry style. So she's always had this relationship with hip hop.

And then fast forward, do you recall, she showed up on Queen Penn's debut album with a, with an updated version of boyfriend. Well, it was just called boyfriend, but it was like a second, a part two of, if that's your boyfriend. And Queen Penn at that point was not holding back any punches. She openly discussed bisexuality.

And talk to, talk very openly in her rhymes about relationships or, you know, trysts with other women and Meshell, um, lending her vocals to that. So she's always had this, had one foot in the hip hop game for sure. And that, and she did, and she was able to, to hang with everybody. And that's how, you know, she, you know, she was definitely a one of one kind of artist.

She is a one of one kind of artists. And. Before we get, before we wrap up this segment, though, so we talking about hip hop. So Jerry, we can't not discuss about controversy.

Jay Ray: one thing before we get to the controversy. Can I just say one thing? Um, just so that folks know, I feel like this is really important.

[00:40:24] The Slow Jam Legacy of Meshell
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Meshell has some of the best slow jams in all All of black music, every single album has more than one, like just classic, classic slow jam. And I want to raise up before we, before we go to the controversy. One is from cookie, the anthropological mixtape. If you've never heard earth, y'all need to go play it. It features Layla Hathaway. Layla is on, is on that, them vocals on the bottom of that vocal is crazy. And, Lovely Lovely from The World Has Made Me The Man Of My Dreams album. Lovely Lovely is, my God, one of the most sexy songs you will ever hear.

Jay Ray: So I just wanted to say, That also, not only is Meshell, this, this amazing artist, she also is committed to making a hot slow J.

DJ Sir Daniel: Yes. And there is a difference between a ballad and a slow jam. We didn't talk to that in one of our older, in our slow jams can heal us episodes. So make sure you check that out as well. But one of my favorite slow jams from her, of course, like I said earlier, is, uh, outside your door. And it features that, uh, a very distinct piano riff that come, that continues throughout the song.

And that song came out, like Jay Ray said, in 1993.

Jay Ray: Yes.

DJ Sir Daniel: Now fast forward to about, what was that? About

[00:42:07] Brian McKnight Controversy
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Jay Ray: 97.

DJ Sir Daniel: 97. Um, a certain Mr. Brian McKnight drops a, drops a song and it's an immediate hit on, on black radio. It also falls into the, um, into the quiet storm mix. And his song is called, um,

Jay Ray: Anytime.

DJ Sir Daniel: anytime. And I had to think I had to go through the lyrics of anytime.

And There's a distinct similarity between that piano riff. He has a very similar piano riff at the end that song. And there's like a, this is before social media. So. We only, we kind of, we music listeners picked up on it and we discussed it amongst ourselves, but it wasn't until recently that articles started popping up about a kind of, uh, I guess a, uh, maybe an infringement war between the two camps about, you know, did you bite this?

Did you sample it? What did you do, Mr. McKnight? What did you do? And there's never been any clear answer or description. Um, but I don't know, is karma coming back from Mr. McKnight now? Do you think that has anything to do?

Jay Ray: You know!

DJ Sir Daniel: That might be, that might be a far, you know, that might be a stretch. Okay. It might be a stretch, but I think it's very, very interesting.

Jay Ray: I think it's also interesting, I think it's also interesting, no, nothing ever came of those discussions, those discussions definitely were happening in the late 90s, because people were asking the question, people were asking the question, um, in fact, uh, in preparation for this conversation, um, There was something I think MTV from years ago, and if we find it, we'll put it in the description for this episode, but, um, where Meshell, Brian's team is like, we wrote that song.

Years before Meshell even got signed or whatever and Meshell's team is like our music speaks for itself. You know what I'm saying? Whatever whatever So it's just kind of like that's where it is. But sir, Daniel,

DJ Sir Daniel: it cute with each

Jay Ray: we're gonna keep it cute. But sir, Daniel is not lying

That song that piano riff in that song if you play the two songs back to back

DJ Sir Daniel: which I have, I've done it. And it, and it's a, it's a quick and simple blend. It's really the same. You might

Jay Ray: to do. Oh,

DJ Sir Daniel: folks. Well, we guess we'll never know we can only have conjecture and, you know, have these conversations, but, you know, you can have those conversations with us on Queue Points podcast, because that's what we do. We talk, we speak in facts, but you know, we don't mind a little, a little gossip here and there. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. You know, trying to have, trying to fit in a conversation because, you know, we want to make, we want to be cognizant of your time because you're spending, you're taking time to be with us and just to chit chat with us and listen to us talk.

And we want to be mindful of that. Of how much time you have, but with a stand like Jerry, uh, Meshell and Danielle stand like Jerry, you got to really keep the reins tight because, Oh, he could have gone on

Jay Ray: there's so much we didn't even talk about the ventriloquism album where she covered all of them amazing songs her version of night and day. I'm gonna stop talking but Meshell's version of night and day is amazing and y'all need to hear it, 

[00:46:06] Closing Remarks and Farewell
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DJ Sir Daniel: Listen, we're at the end of this episode. We are having way too much fun. Um, Jay Ray, please tell the people again, how they can continue to have this much fun with us and to rock our apparel and all the good stuff that comes along with Queue Points podcast.

Jay Ray: Yes, y'all. So thank you so much for hanging out with us, being here, listening, watching wherever you are. Subscribe. It is free. Do us a solid and share the show with your friends and family. If you enjoy the show, chances are that they will enjoy the show too, because they love you and you love Queue Points. So make it all happen.

You know what I mean? Visit our website, Queue Points. com. You can subscribe to our newsletter. You can read our magazine. You can watch all the old shows, which is super awesome. And you can even become a Queue Points insider if you choose to do so. In addition, you can visit our store at store. Queue Points. com and you can buy some merch and all types of stuff.

We got shirts, we got bags, we got mugs, all the things y'all.

DJ Sir Daniel: Well, what do I always say in this life? You have a choice. You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play. I am DJ Sir Daniel

Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray y'all.

This is Queue Points podcast, dropping the needle on black music history. We'll see you on the next go round. Peace.

Jay Ray: Peace, and shout

[00:47:27] Closing Theme
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