Cringe Songs & Transformative Justice w/ Shannon Perez-Darby and Tashmica Torok of Popaganda Podcast

Episode Transcript

*DISCLAIMER: Transcripts are created using AI, and may not accurately represent the content exactly as presented. Transcripts are provided as a courtesy to our listeners who require them.

[00:00:00] How To Support Queue Points

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[00:02:08] Intro Theme (Music by Danya Vodovoz)

[00:02:39] Welcome to Queue Points

DJ Sir Daniel: Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast. I am DJ sir. Daniel

Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my governments as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III what's happening, people?

DJ Sir Daniel: Queue Points podcast is a show that's dropping the needle on black music history and this episode, Jerry, we have, okay, we've had this one in the chamber for a minute,

Jay Ray: We have.

DJ Sir Daniel: We've been wanting to talk about this so, so, so bad, because, you know, that's what we do. We're Queue Points. We, we, Jerry and I get on our tangents and about pop topics that just pop up in our heads.

But we said, wait a minute, we need to talk about this with some people that this directly affects. Okay. Specifically. And we found our perfect matches because there's, there's two of them. There's the look, there's one for me. There's one for you. We can, you know, we're going to

Jay Ray: this is the way those songs go.

DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah, exactly.

Jay Ray: That's exactly the way those songs go.

DJ Sir Daniel: Okay. Nevermind. But listen, I got on my BWP t shirt

Jay Ray: You do got your BWP shirt on.

DJ Sir Daniel: because J. Ray, we are, we are kids of the parental advisory sticker era. We, Tipper Gore, you know, God bless her. She's the one that slapped all those stickers on, on these records and made us want them even more. Because it was filled with content that was just so despicable and, you know, parents need to know what our kids are listening to, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is true.

[00:04:13] Episode Theme: Cringe Songs and Their Impact

DJ Sir Daniel: You know, some of it is true, but on this particular episode, we are talking about not only cringe songs that we like, even though we know we're not supposed to like them, but there is a Kind of what those songs do and what kind of atmosphere they create specifically for women, not just in hip hop culture, but in entertainment as a whole.

So we have some perfect guests to talk about that tonight.

[00:04:38] Merchandise and Community Shoutouts

DJ Sir Daniel: Why don't you tell them, first of all, before we do that, let everybody know how they can get in contact with us and keep up with us and check out that new Queue Points merchandise that they're seeing around town a lot lately.

Jay Ray: Absolutely. So, you know, a shout out, we haven't put this up yet, but, uh, my brother, um, disco disciple was hanging out. Let me shout out to him. He was hanging out at the vinyl festival with Queue Points bag. He was record shopping with his Queue Points bag. And not only that shout out to him, because that. Evening, he got to spin at, um, the, the vinyl bar in Philly and was just spinning some records, you know, all of that because yo, my brother is just doing his thing and I'm really proud of him.

Um, so shout out to him and one of the things that you can get. is our bags. We have bags, shirts, mugs. It's all fly. If you're trying to get fly and keep the lights on at Queue Points, you see these lights, all of these cameras and things that me and Sir Daniel have going on that costs money. You know what I'm saying?

So you can support us by making purchases in our store. That's store. Queue Points. com. That's that part. There's a whole bunch of free stuff too that you can do. For instance, if you are listening to our voices, Seeing our faces, that is the perfect thing to do. Thank you so much for doing that. Subscribe wherever you are tuning in.

We would appreciate that support. And if you want to go a step further, share the show with your friends, family, your colleagues, because if you love Queue Points, chances are they will love Queue Points. And finally, if you visit our website, Queue Points.com, that's Q-U-E-U-E. points. com. You can join the newsletter. We, we not only have all types of articles and things that we do on our blog, but you can get all types of other information.

So you can sign up on our website and I want to tell the, can we tell, let's tell the people about our guests because this is so dope.

[00:06:41] Introducing Special Guests: Tashmica and Shannon

Jay Ray: So before I read their bios, cause these bios are for real. So we're going to get into that. Um, I met, um, Tashmica during the Air Amplify Fellowship. So as you all know, um, I believe we talked about it on a show.

Uh, Queue Points, uh, was part of the Air, uh, Fellowship, the Air Amplify Fellowship, which was a fellowship to, um, help podcast creators, uh, enhance skills in marketing. So it was eight weeks. It was intense because it was two classes, two sessions a week, and, um, I had the opportunity to meet, um, one of the hosts of this podcast, the Popaganda podcast.

So I'm going to read their bios and then we're going to bring them on. But first and foremost, uh, Tashmica Torok is a queer Black woman who centers her work around connecting dope ass people to liberatory ideas so that we All get free. As an abolitionist, Tashmica is cultivating her community's ability to imagine, build, and maintain ways to intervene on acts of violence without relying on police, prisons, or other state institutions as a path towards ending state sanctioned violence against Black and Brown people.

She is also the founding co director of the Firecracker Foundation, a healing community working to end child sexual abuse based in Lansing, Michigan. Also with us is Shannon Perez Darby, a founding member of the Accountable Communities Consortium. Shannon Perez Darby is a queer, mixed, Latina, anti violence advocate, author, activist, and consultant working to create the conditions to support loving, equitable relationships and communities.

Shannon Perez Darby centers queer and trans communities of color while working to address issues of domestic and sexual violence, accountability, and abolition. These two folks collectively make up the Popaganda podcast. And listen, this is the coolest thing. So their tagline is Come for the pop culture, stay for the abolition, y'all Queue Points.

We are so honored to welcome Shannon and Tashmica to Queue Points. Hey y'all,

DJ Sir Daniel: Welcome.

Tashmica Torok: we are so excited to be here. Thank you so much.

Jay Ray: this is so dope. Y'all are so, uh, this is great. Congratulations on Papaganda. Congratulations on just it. The show is just so dope and resonates, but also teaches. And so we just want to like, first of all, big up that, um, and congratulations and just welcome y'all. How you

Shannon Perez-Darby: That is the sweetest, warmest welcome. I'm just like, my heart is like bursting with joy. I just so appreciate y'all having us here and been able to be in this conversation with y'all.

Jay Ray: Yes, absolutely.

DJ Sir Daniel: is truly our pleasure.

Jay Ray: Absolutely. So we're going to actually start the conversation with.

[00:09:58] Popaganda Podcast: Origins and Themes

Jay Ray: Talking about Popaganda because one of the things so for everybody who is listening as soon as we're done this You see the the name on the IG down at the bottom if you got your phone just going over to IG right now and follow Popaganda pod it also has the information on how you can subscribe to the show Okay, so do that while we're having this conversation but Let's talk about the show itself.

So how did y'all two become pop culture besties? I love that. That's the thing. How did so and how did y'all become pop culture besties? And how did this show come about?

Tashmica Torok: Well, it happened through a mutual friend. Uh, Shannon and I are both friends with Mia Mingus. We both love her so much. She is a transformative justice practitioner, leader. Um, and she's also just a very joyful person. Person whose favorite movie happens to be Jurassic Park. And, um, and one day I was saying to her that all I want to do is start a podcast so I can talk about the transformative justice themes that I see in shows like The Walking Dead or Grey's Anatomy.

Um, and she was like, you have to talk to my friend, Shannon. And.

Shannon Perez-Darby: And I had basically the exact same experience, which is I'm an activist in residence with Just Beginnings Collaborative. We were doing some work with Mia. I said to Mia, All I want to do is talk about pop culture and transformative justice. And she said, you should talk to Tashmica Torek. And she match made us into pop culture besties.

It was just about a year ago and here we are.

Jay Ray: Wow. Um, and so y'all had met had y'all had y'all didn't know each other before that.

Shannon Perez-Darby: Nope, not since we started this project. We weren't friends before we just jumped in and, and here we are.

Jay Ray: Wow. Can we, can I ask that? I know that that wasn't on our list of things, but I do want to ask what was that like in terms of that first kind of getting on and, and getting started with the show? What, how did y'all kind of figure it out as you were going along?

Tashmica Torok: Gosh, with a lot of laughter, um, a lot of storytelling because we just both deeply love TV. I think our first episode is probably the best capture of us just sharing the history of how much, how we, how TV, Helped us survive, helped us, um, learn about who we were in the world, um, across lots of different things.

And I don't think there was, and Shannon can correct me if I'm wrong, but it was just like, hi, hello. I think we're best friends now. I don't think it, it really, and then we were like, let's talk into a microphone. And that's how it happened.

Shannon Perez-Darby: And you know that feeling where you watch a TV show, you listen to a piece of music, you see a meme and you immediately want to talk to somebody about it. That is the motivation. And for me, there is no tension between my love of pop culture and my transformative justice and abolitionist values. Like I'm an integrated human, there's space for joy.

All of that brings me a lot of joy, but for many people, there are tensions there. And so for us, we were like, great. Well, let's just invite people to like things and invite people to bring our values into the things that bring us joy. So the bachelor, Kardashians, things that don't otherwise align with my vision of the world.

But I like. watching those shows, um, and this is a vehicle to align our values with the things that bring us joy.

Jay Ray: I love that.

DJ Sir Daniel: I love it too. Jerry. It sounds like we're on a, on a double date here

Jay Ray: Yeah, it does.

DJ Sir Daniel: uh, no lie when the same way that you two align is how Jerry and I have aligned when it comes to this music thing. Like all of our friends in common will tell you the same thing. They will sit in, they'll hear us have a conversation and just be like, uh, those two are going at it again.

Those two, you know, they're, they're doing their thing. They're in their world talking about music ad nauseam. And it literally was just like a, a continuum where we was just like, We need to do a

Jay Ray: Mm hmm.

[00:14:01] Cringe Songs: Personal Favorites and Reflections

DJ Sir Daniel: Here we are discussing a lot of the parallels of what we discuss and what you guys talk about as well. And so here we are at this topic about cringe worthy music, cringe worthy songs that we know we're not supposed to like, but it conflicts with our morals, our values, but gosh, darn it. We still enjoy it. Can you two share right off the top of your head? A song, an album that she was just like, Oh, this is so wrong.

But I, this is my jam. I can't let anybody know. It's like, you're walking out of the record store in a trench coat and you

Jay Ray: Right.

DJ Sir Daniel: underneath there.

Tashmica Torok: mhm, mhm,

DJ Sir Daniel: your trench coat.

Tashmica Torok: Mhm.

Shannon Perez-Darby: to mind was It Wasn't Me by Shaggy, um, because it's so, that song is so freaking catchy. Like, you're just

Jay Ray: is

Shannon Perez-Darby: and every time you listen to the lyrics, the more you're And I'm sure it's not the first song because I was in high school when that came out. There have to have been cringy songs I loved before that, but that was the first thing that popped in my head, which now has been stuck in my head since like for like 24 hours since you sent the prompts. And here we are.

Jay Ray: Tashmica, what about you?

Tashmica Torok: Oh, I, this is, oh man, I'm going to put this on the internet. It's never going away, but I, you know, there were some songs that are farther down the line and, but when I think of myself as a child with my boom box in my bedroom and the first song that I have a memory of being like, it's two live crew. Horny, I'm too horny, uh, a way my grade school self was singing those lyrics as a child.

I, and of course in preparation, Johnny, you know, I like to make playlists. I pulled that song over and I was listening to it and I was like, this is terrible. That's, that's number one.

Jay Ray: Cute so it's interesting that y'all. Um pick those. Okay, so The the first song I thought of actually I realized was bad way late after I became an adult But if there was a song that As a child, I kind of knew that I shouldn't be listening to in a lot of ways. Um, it was cringe. I mean, Prince has a lot of cringe stuff, but head, I remember hearing head when I was like seven.

DJ Sir Daniel: were in grade school then.

Jay Ray: And I, Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I'm like, this is a jam, but also I'm like, there's something about this song I didn't know what it was about the song that I shouldn't be listening to

Tashmica Torok: Mm hmm.

Jay Ray: But yeah, I certainly was Shannon, I'm sorry, I'm certainly was Seven listening to Head and thinking it was dope and this woman was on her way to be wed and I'm Yeah

DJ Sir Daniel: And she was just a virgin.

Jay Ray: She was just a virgin on her way to be wed. She was.

Tashmica Torok: That sounds right.

Jay Ray: Yeah.

DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah. So, okay. So I have something a little, well, it struck me a little more recently as a DJ. Sometimes I, you know, I throw on stuff and. I listened to it and this was before Me Too became a serious movement. And I remember specifically talking to you, J Ray, about this. We were talking about cringey songs.

I think it was the Christmas songs, I Gotta Go, But I Really Can't Stay, It's Cold Outside. So they were talking about that. And then it made me think. Of Aaron Hall's, don't be afraid

Jay Ray: Problem.

DJ Sir Daniel: from the juice soundtrack. When they remixed it, it's one of my favorite. It's like a quintessential nineties jam where, when you hear the beat, you automatically, you know, you start East coast stomping and you, you having a great time, but then you hear the girls, you hear the girls say, um, what does she say?

Jay Ray, don't be, he says, don't be

Jay Ray: he's yeah, he's don't be afraid. He's like,

DJ Sir Daniel: me away, the more you make me more

Jay Ray: horny. Mm hmm. Yeah, it's making me more horny. Right? But,

DJ Sir Daniel: She's underaged and she's scared and she doesn't know she wants to do this, but he's saying, don't worry, don't be afraid. I'm still going to take it. And I'm going to do, we're going to do this thing.

And so for a long time, I was, I started being conflicted about whether I'm going to play this. Anymore in public because, you know, these things are being highlighted and people are starting to reflect on these records and on these artists and a lot more information is coming out about these artists and people are telling their stories about interactions with them.

And, you know, it's so funny watching. I played it recently. I'm not gonna lie. I played it recently. At, um, at the bar and the, I just saw this woman, she was just going and she was just bopping her life away. And I was like, wow, I wonder if she's paid attention to the lyrics or is this just her jam? And she just remembers it and has good memories of it and is unable to separate the two.

Jay Ray: it's interesting and I'm, I definitely. As a, as I've experienced this, so I've experienced it twice. Um, as I gotten older, Keith sweats right in a wrong way is a problem. Like he's like, you may be young, but you're ready, ready to learn. And I'm like, sir. Sir, I was singing this by the way, when I was like 10, cause this song came out in 1987.

And I'm thinking like, what in the world did, did they put on this record and have me as a child singing to, they still play this song. This song is a classic R& B staple. Other ones, Do Me by, uh, Bel Biv DeVoe.

Tashmica Torok: Oh my gosh. Yes.

Jay Ray: Do Me by Bel Biv DeVoe when it gets to the rap and, um, it is underage, backstage underage. And you're like, what?

And they

Tashmica Torok: a minute.

DJ Sir Daniel: going to skip

Jay Ray: and they still play it. So I, it came on the radio. I think I said this to Sir Daniel. I might've said it on the show. I was in the car within the last year and it came on and I'm like, Let me see what they do. Let me see if they are gonna like bleep anything. No, no, no, no Doomy is playing full out.

[00:20:53] Pop Culture and Transformative Justice

Jay Ray: And so From, and I'm curious, y'all spend so much time talking about this kind of duality, Shannon, you mentioned this early, but pop culture and its impact, right? I'm just curious as y'all reflect on this stuff kind of in pop culture, what, how do y'all make the decisions about how you approach these things?

Yes.

Shannon Perez-Darby: that are very ready. Um, You know, I always start with a particularly, you know, our work always comes back to domestic and sexual violence. So, uh, it depends on the room you're in, if that feels like a bummer, or if that feels like a compelling, important conversation to be having.

And, uh, for me, we live. In rape culture, we live in culture where domestic and sexual violence is so normalized. It's the water we're swimming in. It's so common. And so instead of being in resistance of saying like, Oh, you can't consume anything that touches on questions of domestic and sexual violence.

For me, it's the question of like, how are we in relationship to it? So just facing that this is a reality that there is creepy, coercive, like stuff happening in the air is just the a common experience for many people. And so there's the like, this thing of like turning towards that. And that is often how we deal with and address instead of just shutting down, which so much happens when we talk about domestic and sexual violence.

We're just like, I don't know,

Jay Ray: Uh

Shannon Perez-Darby: what it would it take to just say, okay, yeah, that's creepy. Those lyrics are creepy. Yeah. We're talking about like a person who's saying no, like a woman who's saying no, a girl who's no. Um, and you're saying like, I'm just going to keep going. Yeah. Um, and to actually just move towards that instead of away from it is one of the strategies I, and like we use in, in, as we talk about pop culture, especially problematic pop culture.

Jay Ray: Uh huh, Um,

Tashmica Torok: Yeah. And I, um, I,

DJ Sir Daniel: and touch me.

Tashmica Torok: the, the thing that's interesting too, um, I know I said earlier that this becomes a parenting podcast for me very quickly, but I do think that because I have young, youngish baby adults, uh, in the world, one of the strategies that I used was like, Let's read those lyrics out loud, um, and it wasn't meant to shame.

It's kind of the same thing I do with reality dating or wedding shows where I'm like, Ooh, they should not be talking to each other like that. That is so rude. Or he's being so insensitive or she, you know, like that wasn't very honest. Um, I think there is. space for recognizing like you said, DJ Sir Daniel, when that beat drops, there is, there is a reason that when a beat drops, our bodies move and the beat drop before the lyrics hit, you know, you don't, sometimes you don't even hear the lyrics at all for a really long time.

And then all of a sudden you're like, Oh, my body has learned to respond to this beat for however many years. And now I'm like supposed to shut that part of my brain off when I hear that song. It doesn't work. It just doesn't work, period. And if we're going to have an honest conversation about the ways that sexual violence domestic violence impact our community, then we have to stop pretending that people are creating art in order to promote it, rather than we actually are in it.

They actually believe that this is a part of how they're moving through the world in that moment when they wrote that song. And there are people who are in that moment with them that, that do believe that in that moment. And that's, That's what art is. It's a moment in time that we are encapsulating through the thing that we can create, whether you're a film person or TV or music, you're telling a story about the, the, my tattoos, right?

This is like a story of my life on my body. It's art. We can't so quickly pull that apart and so easily dismiss it because it's meaningful.

Jay Ray: Um,

DJ Sir Daniel: And see, and this is why Tashmica and Shannon are the perfect people to discuss this topic because J. Ray, when we were talking about bringing this to the table. I automatically think about most musicians, specifically, um, males, men, musicians, a lot of their muses are women. The inspiration for a lot of songs are the women in their lives, the women that they encounter.

Hip hop, my God, one of the biggest songs in hip hop history is Roxanne Roxanne. And if you want to talk about, you know, um, uh, a story of, Culture where a man is trying to proposition a young woman and how that can either go right or go wrong, depending on how he approaches her. That's the prime. That's one of the prime examples.

Recently, the musician tank, the R& B singer, you know, um, and star of his own podcast, R& B money was on the breakfast club. And the discussion was around how a lot of today's R& B specifically lacks a lot of that. Um, that finesse and that, you know, the, the sweet touch that a lot of the, um, R and B male artists used to have back in the day, right.

Their approach to music and, and tank was just like, I want. Men, these are his words. I want men to fall in love with the, again,

Jay Ray: Right.

DJ Sir Daniel: can I, are we going

Jay Ray: you can say it.

DJ Sir Daniel: Okay. He's a, he's a, I want men to fall in love with the pussy again. And what I, we met when he was saying, and I picked up what he was saying. I was like, you all are not, you all act as if you hate women.

Now. And is that why we're not getting the type, the Marvin Gaye esque type of music, the Teddy Pendergrass type of music that we used to get? He was like, I want y'all to fall in love with women again. And do we, I guess, does it feel as if male musicians, is he right? Have they lost that touch or what is it going to take for men to start putting women or start keeping women in mind when they create this music again?

[00:27:27] Would you rather be in the woods with a bear or a man?

Tashmica Torok: You know, all I can think of right now is how many women on TikTok would rather be in the woods with a bear than a man. I don't know if you've seen that trend right now,

DJ Sir Daniel: trust that was going to be, that was the question.

Tashmica Torok: And, you know, I, for me For some reason, I haven't been on TikTok very often the past couple weeks. So my son actually asked me with zero context.

He's like, mom, would you rather be in the woods with a bear or a man? And I was like a bear. And he was like, what? And I was like,

Shannon Perez-Darby: Always the bear.

Tashmica Torok: The bear is not going to torture me, like, the bear is going to kill me and eat me. And that is the end of the story. That is the whole thing. That is not the case with men.

And you didn't say what kind of man, where I met him. You said a man. I don't know this man. Please let the bear kill me very quickly and be done with it. And so I don't know.

[00:28:20] Were the societal norms we were taught about romance ever even true?

Tashmica Torok: I feel like there is. There were always crooners, there's always been romantic music that has happened, that, and that Black men are spearheading, and, you know, that, I think of Jodeci, as soon as you said that, I was like, ooh, yeah, because, you know, he got that, you know what I mean, there's like a whole, you know, that's, I know exactly what the call is, I know what, I know what that felt like, and I don't know that that lack of Um, That kind of music comes from a lack of love as much as people in general don't know how to be in an intimate, honest, healthy relationship.

We don't have a lot of models for that. And so I wonder too, if there is a sort of disillusionment with those songs that we grew up hearing and the romance and what does it close the door boys to men, right? Like we, we. Right? Light the candles. We knew, we knew what romance was supposed to look like. And then we, we also have R.

Kelly, and we have these romances that we thought we were watching in real time. That we thought we understood. That we thought that was the goal. Right? I remember being a teenage girl who only wanted to be Aaliyah, right? Like, if I could have had the swoop, I would have. Right? You know, there was no world in which I would have been wearing a half top or crop top and jeans like that, but I really want it to be.

That was the goal, but that wasn't real.

Jay Ray: Right.

Tashmica Torok: And so I don't know. I, yeah, that's, that's sort of where I'm, that's where I'm curious.

Shannon Perez-Darby: Because Tajmika and I are mind melded in our pop culture, uh, the man or the bear was exactly the first thing I thought of. So I was just like, of course, that's what you said, because we are weirdly synced up in our references. Um, yeah, the other thing I think about is, One way that men could do that is it be in good relationship with women in their lives and think about women as collaborators rather than subjects of their art.

And so when you have women who are producing art, who are in the process, not just thought of as like the object of the, of the story or just like, you know, or just the subject, that is a great way to bring more women into art, into the, um, into the music, into the medium, in good relationship instead of just in an objectifying way where. Women are, you're talking about women, but not two women.

Jay Ray: Yes. Um, thank you both so much for, for that because I absolutely think, um, there's so many layers to this particular conversation and, um, Shannon, thank you for mentioning like that. So men being in good, healthy relationship with the women in their lives will help. So Tank, here's the answer to your question.

Men being in good, healthy relationships with the women in their lives, period, will then have them do the things that we are asking. Because one of the things I also think about, so many of the crooners that we are even talking about, when we think about a Marvin Gaye, when we think about these folks, they had very complicated relationships with women and were violent to, to women.

Um, and Just, and I, I say this, I know I've said this on the show before let's get it on was written about a 17 year old girl. That album was written about this 17 year old girl that he went on to marry. Right. And just putting that in context of like, this song is absolutely gorgeous. Let's just understand how it was

Tashmica Torok: hmm.

Jay Ray: Right. Right. And, you know, um, to that

Tashmica Torok: And also, oh, sorry, go

Jay Ray: no, no, no, go ahead, Tashmica. Right.

Tashmica Torok: respect, negotiate that. know, I know, I'm

DJ Sir Daniel: don't have to negotiate.

Tashmica Torok: You're right, you're right, you're right. I just feel like, there's like, you know what it's like, it reminds me of going to, uh, see some comedy, and like when you watch an amateur comedian who is also a man, and you're like, We're not 12 anymore.

Not every joke has to be about masturbation. Like, we can write deeper context. And this sort of feels like that to me. I'm like, yes, being intimate sexually with people, with, you know, and with someone you love is beautiful. And let's not kid ourselves, that's what we want. Sure. Also, when it comes to women, especially Black women being hyper sexualized and talked about as objects, like Shannon was talking about, it's like, maybe, could we write something where we're talking about how powerful women are?

And, you know, we don't need an, I don't need, who runs the world, girls, like, I don't need that. I, I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just, nobody be mad at

Jay Ray: Hold on, the beehive is like, let me log on to

Tashmica Torok: stop, stop, Lord,

DJ Sir Daniel: chill, chill, chill, chill. Right.

Tashmica Torok: Everyone, I'm sorry. I love her, okay? I bow down. But like, I don't need that.

I just, it's like, it's actually more simple than that. It's actually as simple and basic as women are humans. Who contribute to the world in powerful ways, and that actually doesn't have to be tied to sex or birthing babies or keeping a man's house or feeding the man before you feed the children or, you know, or, or, or, or, or it goes on and on.

It could just be as simple as we exist and we contribute. And if you can't think of a woman who is a role model that you can talk about in your music. I feel like maybe you need to come to my house and I'll parent you for, just kidding. I won't,

Shannon Perez-Darby: Do not say you. You better be charging a lot of money to be parenting some adult men to Taika. It

Tashmica Torok: I will be, that'll, yeah, that'll be the monetization that I'm looking for. Um, but yeah, I just, there, there is, it takes intention. If I want my algorithm to feed me men that I value and respect, we share the same values in the world, then I have to seek them out, find them, listen to them and ingest their content, right?

The same is true for women. If you are only listening to men and how men talk about women and how, what men value about women, you're not listening to women. You are not valuing women's voices. And that's Trust and believe that men talk way more than women do in every meeting and everything that you do.

Men are going to be talking more. So it takes a lot of energy. Well, unless you're in the room with me, but it takes a lot of energy and effort to actually seek out the voices of the people who are often marginalized and silenced in the world's conversations.

Jay Ray: Which brings up a really Um, interesting part of this conversation because certainly talking about, um, the men and their relationship to the women and how, you know, these songs, but also we see this a lot on social media. There are women. Who,

Shannon Perez-Darby: I'm going

Jay Ray: cases have made excuses for some of these men who have either, you know, really bad reputations or have been proven to be offenders or problematic, right?

Shannon Perez-Darby: here

Jay Ray: There are several that we can name that I won't name because this stuff is alleged, right? But, um, how do y'all, one, feel about that in this kind of moment that we're in? And two, um, any advice for. Um, some of those women. Um,

Shannon Perez-Darby: I mean, women live in patriarchy and misogyny too. And so like, we're all like, breathe in the air, we're all getting the messages, um, and plenty of us do things that hurt us. I sit for five hours at a time in front of my computer without getting up and eating food and looking far away so it doesn't fuck up my eyes.

Like, that's not good for me. And I know that's not good for me, and I still do it because I'm, because of whatever reason I'm doing it. So, um, and people are also allowed to do things that aren't good for them, quote unquote. And so, um, I think to just understand that context, and whenever I'm trying to understand particularly impact.

So, you know, in anti violence work, you talk about intent versus impact and to really look at who's suffering and who's benefiting from that. And we know that when women are aligning with men who are abusive, it usually is harming those women. It usually doesn't go great for those women. And so what I have is lots of compassion and understanding that that's probably not going great for them, um, or is not going to go great for them long term.

And so, You know, part of the abolitionist work too is holding this long vision of change and understanding that not everybody's there, right? And so I don't just cut people off because they're not they don't have the same values as me or they're not doing the same thing like I hold a radical vision where everyone can have what they need outside of harmful systems and that includes Women who are being harmed by misogyny who are lining up with men.

It doesn't mean they shouldn't have like maybe natural consequences for harming other women or just for acting bad, but, um, I don't, I don't personally feel the need to hate on women who are. aligning with men who are problematic. Like I get it and I want a different thing, but I get it.

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[00:40:03] Accountability and Redemption in Pop Culture

DJ Sir Daniel: So what people, the con, the conversation is going, well, what about redemption? What about giving offenders a second chance and, you know, being empathetic to them and, you know, All of this, a decade has passed and they've grown, they've changed what, you know, those kind of, those caveats start being thrown into the conversation.

What about that? What about giving people a second chance? And those are the conversations that, and that's, that's what these, um, a lot of the women. that are being pinpointed for having those feelings and, and being, um, outspoken about giving people a second chance. They're being eviscerated for that online as well.

So where, so where do you guys stand on that? What about, you know, giving people a second chance?

Shannon Perez-Darby: I could not be happier asking this question because my life's work is basically in response to this question. So bless you. Thank you. Um, So, you know, I, uh, I'm part of the Accountable Communities Consortium, and part of the work we're doing is talking about accountability, and what does accountability meaningfully mean?

And we know that accountability is not policing and criminalization. We know that that is a false idea, that that's not what's happening there. And, uh, I believe that accountability is possible, including for people who have caused grievous harm, who have sexually assaulted someone, who has been abusive, who has taken someone else's life.

I believe that is possible. And the conditions that make that possible are often very far away from our reality. So that includes things like, you know, People having what they need. So safe and stable housing, connection, like having their basic needs met is a really important part of accounting for the harm you've caused, for stopping the harm and accounting for it.

And I want a world where people who've caused grievous harm have pathways to accountability and accountability. I know that's not, I know for many people that's very far away, but I actually, I believe deeply in that, and I believe if we want a world without prisons and policing, we're actually going to have to get really serious about the questions of accountability for people who cause grievous harm, because I don't think police and criminalization is the answer, so as communities, we're going to have to figure out a meaningful pathway for people who have been grievously harmed, like have caused grievous harm, can be accountable.

Some of those conditions are acknowledging the harm you've done, not continuing it, stopping it. So I just want to say often people who are harmful in public, they have not stopped the harm, said they're sorry, accounted for it, showed meaningful change, or even an intent to make meaningful change. Um, so that's the quickest answer I can give to my life's work.

But I believe accountability is important and necessary and we can all get busy at creating the conditions that actually make that possible.

Tashmica Torok: Yeah, there's a reason why we love Negan from The Walking Dead. We love that character arc. He was the most murderous, murdery man. And, and then all of a sudden he was captured and he was in jail. And then they're like, well, shit, the zombies are coming. We better let him go and figure out what we're supposed to do with this person who we were afraid of.

And oh, wait, weren't we also murdering his people? Oh. Right. And then we're going to use him to murder other people because it serves our interests, almost like our military. So like, we recognize ourselves in these shows. That's what, that's what the Popaganda podcast is really about, is that when we see those moments and we're like, Oh my gosh, Negan is taking care of Maggie's He murdered her, the love of her life before she, before she even had this child.

And she has gotten to a place where she's like, well, this is the conditions. This is where we're at. It's because there's a piece of us. We have all done something wrong. We may not have all done grievous harm to the extent that we're talking about here. But we have all done something that has hurt somebody else.

And we have all had to figure out either how to practice accountability and be in right relationship with a person that we hurt, or to avoid accountability and to allow that hurt to continue. And we have watched in all of our relationships the consequences of both choices. And so when we're thinking about the world we want to live in, I think oftentimes we look at celebrities because it's easier to look farther away and be like, yeah, we can just forgive them.

It's cool. You know, it's been 10 years. I think it's interesting that some people seem to think that accountability is only related to how much distance you have from the harm, but not any of the practical things that Shannon just named. And so. There are steps. There are things that we have practiced in community, but you have to be willing to do that in your own personal life with the people that are right next to you versus pushing that idea outward towards a celebrity who you actually don't have control or power over to even pretend to make them be accountable.

Uh, it's, it's a little too far afield. We need to focus our gaze. on the people around us and how we treat those people and how we practice accountability there because that's the part that teaches, that's how the world changes.

Jay Ray: You know what? I absolutely thank y'all so much because what this is reminding us of so much is it is so important that we practice and center the relationships with the people closest to us because it reverberates out into the world. It enters the songs. If we are practicing it in our lives with those people, it's not this, um, uh, you know, amorphous idea that you're writing about because you think this is what love feels like.

It's like, no, I know love.

Tashmica Torok: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

DJ Sir Daniel: Yes.

Shannon Perez-Darby: And I think all good art is made from experience. Like the art I love the most is because it has been embodied by someone's own practice and experience. Personally, that is the art and music that I like to listen, like listen to and consume. And so I want, yeah, it has to be embodied. You have to actually have practiced it to, to share it.

Yeah.

Tashmica Torok: Well, I also want to talk a little bit about history and how we even find ourselves in this moment, right? We're, we're here on the, dropping the needle on Black music history, not that I pay any attention at all about what goes around here. Um, but you know, we are from, uh, um, communities and cultures who have experienced violence at the hands of colonizers.

Mm hmm. And at the hands of enslave, enslavers, at the hands of people, um, in this country who are not black, not people of color. And part of that was intense sexual violence on black women. Part of that meant that black men were experiencing sexual violence within enslavement. And when enslavement ended, and when Jim Crow ended, it's not like there was a Red Cross.

community waiting there with blankets and toothbrushes and therapists to walk us out of the crisis of violence and harm that we experience. No, part of the reason why we still find ourselves, in my humble opinion, this is not a peer reviewed article, um, that we still make excuses is because it protects us from the reality of the relationships that harm us.

We have been in a practice as women of finding stories that we can tell ourselves, stories that we can tell one another about how violence happens and who is at fault in order to survive the men who are in prison. Our families, because most times when we experience sexual and domestic violence, it's not from strangers.

It's not right. It's people that we know, love and trust, whether you are a child or an adult. And so I know that there are women who are saying these things because it is wrote embodied memory, that this is how we survive the men that we love. This is how we survive our siblings, our uncles, our grandfathers, our fathers.

And until we are able to safely tell the truth, we are always going to find people saying, telling the same stories. And women are actually not responsible for creating that safety. Okay.

DJ Sir Daniel: so, so this is right on time Tashmica because speaking of creating safe spaces, right, um, community, the mu our show is based around music and music is, is a tool of creating community and we gather to listen, to watch these artists perform. And now, um, Harkening back to something you said, what have you said earlier about now women have agency on stage on the microphone are writing their own lyrics, saying that rapping and whatnot, but that doesn't necessarily protect them either because recently we saw a young lady, a new, um, rap artist by the name of a stunner girl, she was on stage performing and.

Jay Ray: Mm-Hmm.

DJ Sir Daniel: I don't know what possessed this brother to do that, but got close enough to the stage where he, he slept, like slapped her, but, um, where, I don't know if he thought nobody was going to do anything or say anything, but he just felt emboldened to go to closer to stage and slap her. But actually that happened to, um, Beyonce once, as a matter of fact, in performance, and it's, it's quite shocking that.

you know, a lot of men have the feel emboldened enough to and feel like they can, they have agency to just touch somebody on their body part while they're on stage performing. But, you know, as you, as you take in, you know, nowadays, as we take in media and we go to, to shows and concerts, like, do you, and I know you can't speak for all women, but do you feel safe in these environments when we get together?

Yeah. If we're in community to enjoy these things, like, but do you feel safe?

Tashmica Torok: know, it's interesting because I am a 43 year old woman who has three children, and um, I have been married.

[00:50:33] Navigating Personal Safety

Tashmica Torok: I'm currently transitioning out of my marriage in a really good and beautiful way, and I called myself going out one night. And I sort of feel like once you get to 35, there's a statistic that your chances of being sexually assaulted go down.

Why would I know that? I don't know because I'm a woman living in the United States. Um, but it's kind of like the car insurance, you know, your, your deductible goes down.

DJ Sir Daniel: Hmm. Hmm.

Tashmica Torok: so I go out and I am not thinking about this really. I'm in a space that I know. I'm in a space with people that I know. There are other people there, of course, but I'm just thinking, I'm a grown woman.

I've made humans. Like I'm a, like, I'm safer than what I was when I was younger. And I came, I was walking through the crowd and there was a younger man walking towards me and he didn't read any of that age on me, allegedly. And, um, Uh, he looked at me and I could tell he was kind of like, he was like, she's cute, but I didn't think anything of it because I am cute.

So I keep walking, right? Obviously we're on the same page,

Jay Ray: Yes.

Tashmica Torok: right? So he picked up what I was laying down.

Jay Ray: Yes.

Tashmica Torok: it. So we, I keep walking and sure enough, he grabs my ass. I was be, uh, I was bewildered, uh, it first of all burst my bubble because lots of people in this community know me. And I often say my visibility is a piece that keeps me safer.

People know who I am. People look out for me. People look out for my children. And I, it was a real come to Jesus moment where I was like, here we are again. In a crowded space, regardless of my work, regardless of who I am, what I have done, how old I am, I am still considered an object to men of all ages, and I was not prepared for that reality.

Um, so even spaces where I feel like I have done the prep and I'm with my friends, right? They give you all the victim blaming things that you're supposed to be doing. What were you wearing? What were you? It doesn't like, it doesn't, it actually doesn't matter. We aren't safe. I believe safety is a myth.

I think we would really like to believe that we are safe. It's actually really important.

[00:53:02] Systemic Harm and Accountability

Tashmica Torok: That we don't believe that it's really important that we, as Shannon has said, turn towards the violence and recognize that none of us are safe until we are all safe and part of the reason that police and prisons need to be abolished.

is because they are sites of harm for not just sexual violence, but child sexual abuse. Um, and, and that also includes detention centers and ICE. Like, children are being harmed and we have created spaces where that goes unaddressed. And what is really Important about that is that when people in power are allowed to harm people that we consider less than, guess where they go, y'all?

Prison? People who work in prisons and jails and detention centers, they have families. Cops that sexually assault, the second most reported act of police violence is sexual violence. And guess where those cops go? They go home. They go to your community, they go where your children are going to school, and I'm not trying to create some kind of like, moral panic, you can hear about that on our podcast when we talk about satanic panic, um, but I am saying that when we allow some people to harm people we don't care about, they come back around.

and harm other people. And it's not, it's like they say, you don't, you disappear people. You don't create accountability. You don't create safety when you put someone in incarceration. This is that same thing.

Shannon Perez-Darby: I mean, I think that's mostly beautifully said, just what Tajmika said. And so I don't have too much different to offer. I'm also a 40 year old woman, um, who is not trying to go out that much these days. And so my relationship that has changed throughout age, throughout time, throughout just what I'm doing with my days.

And so mostly I, my spaces are so curated that for myself, I don't. walk around feeling worried about violence. And I know all the, like, just like the experience Tashmica had, I am intimately aware that that is under my best conditions. I think I'm safe ish, and we know that may or may not be true. And I just, that's part of reality, just being a woman in the world, or any person targeted for violence in the world.

Jay Ray: Thank you both so much for sharing. This is, there's going to be a lot, there's so much here that we can dig into.

[00:55:37] Problematic Faves in Music

Jay Ray: Um, but as we wrap up, um, so one of the things we definitely, of course, we're a music podcast. And, you know, we have problematic faves, um, we've actually talked about several of them. We, we did a Kaya show this year, last year we did an Azalea Banks show.

So we are no stranger to problematic faves and trying to, you know, wrestle through that work. But okay. So if y'all are at An event, think award show, mm, Popaganda, the Popaganda podcast awards, or,

Tashmica Torok: We were just talking about doing this. It might have to happen. You just, you just sealed it. You just sealed

Jay Ray: listen, and your problem, you know what I'm saying, and your problematic fave, you don't know how they got there, but they're there. You're like, all of a sudden, problematic fave is sitting here, and they're right in front of you.

[00:56:34] Advice to Problematic Artists

Jay Ray: What do you whisper to them? What are your suggestions or your pleas that you would make to them about their music?

If you had an opportunity, if they said, Shannon, Tashmica, what should I, what should I be doing? What would, what would y'all say?

Tashmica Torok: Hey, little mama. Let me whisper in your ear. That's all I heard when you said that. That's all I heard when

Jay Ray: Hello, Mama Livers! Yes!

DJ Sir Daniel: I was not expecting that Tashmica good on you, good on you for that one you pulled that one from the archives

Tashmica Torok: I'm gonna let Shannon actually answer, but I had to get that out. I had to get that part out. I

Shannon Perez-Darby: yeah, the first thing, maybe not the first thing, but what came to my mind, as you've noticed, I'm not short winded, so I would have to be like, and I'd be like, do you want to go out with me later so I can talk to you about your behavior? Um, which is a little bit of a less enticing, um, invitation than something so, so, so Snappy.

[00:57:34] Lizzo and the Challenges of Fame

Shannon Perez-Darby: But, um, who came to my mind was Lizzo. So really thinking about, especially with Lizzo's

Jay Ray: good one!

Shannon Perez-Darby: and I love Lizzo. Like I, I love her and I have a best friend who does not love Lizzo and so we are a constant just, she's just like, she's dead to me. Um. And so particularly the lawsuit, like, I feel like I have an idea about what happened, the conditions of the lawsuit she's in right now.

I don't know her obviously, but I guess what I, my assessment of that situation is, I suspect Lizzo was not trying to do any harm. What I suspect happened is that if you have never been an employer before, if you are in the music industry, if you are trying to be everybody's best friend, the line between friendship and employer gets very confusing.

And if you are a person who then suddenly has power and wealth and money, and you suddenly have this institutional responsibility, and you're also trying to be like, hey bestie, um, that, a lot of messy things happen when people started out as peers and then somebody moves into leadership or moves into having more resource.

And I think that's part of what happened. And so, of course, if you're taking your besties to the sex show in Amsterdam, like, have at it, have a good time, tell your bestie no, um, and flattening, and I suspect, Her whole world is her, probably her music and her work. And so flattening that then, you know, her backup dancers are her friends, is I suspect part of the dynamic that happened there.

And so, you know, if her, you're her backup dancer, it's like, actually this is a really big gig for me. This is a big deal. This is my job. You know, we are not friends. You seem lovely, but we're not friends. Um, and I do feel an obligation now to go to the after show, to go to the thing, to play along, to have fun.

And so what I would say to Liza was that is. to get really clear about her role, and it can be confusing if you haven't felt powerful historically. But she is powerful in that context, extremely powerful and influential. And so you have to change your orientation to your responsibility and role. And it might mean that her world is smaller, but figuring out who are your peers to go to this sex show in Amsterdam, and that's probably not your employees.

And so, yeah. That's the conversation I would have with Lizzo if she were so interested.

[00:59:39] Nicki Minaj and Personal Accountability

Tashmica Torok: Yeah, and I was thinking about Nicki Minaj, uh, and the Pink Friday album, um, and you know, especially around the sexual violence and justifying, just like we were just talking about and, you know, just the same way, you know, Shannon was, I have a hard time hating on women. Um, because one in three women have experienced some form of sexual violence.

And when you're a black woman, that statistic goes up. And I feel like when I'm witnessing Nicki Minaj's behavior, I just want to give her a, this sounds so, a little Sesame Street, but I literally just want to know what's going on. And I think, you know, I challenge people who are in Um, relationship with one another when someone is doing something that is so outside of what you would consider good values, there's something, something ain't right, right?

And sometimes, you know, that person, and you can be like, I know those aren't your values and you can just be like, Hey, I love you so much. And this, this is not okay. You are harming yourself. You are harming other people. Can we just. Can we just stop? Number one, can we just take a break, take a breath, get off of Twitter for a hot second and let's just maybe explore why you think this is okay and let me tell you why it hurts me that you're doing this because it's not going to be a crowd of people with pitchforks that's going to change someone's mind.

It's actually going to be because someone loved them enough in their circle and had the values that they needed. That shared enough values so that they could have a rich conversation about the pain that exists in here and, and why we're making the choices we're making. It's really hard to do that when you are in a public beef where your ego is involved and you feel like you have to always punch back rather than doing your, you're addressing symptoms.

Of the thing that you're doing versus stopping and being like, actually, there's a lot of stuff going on in me that is causing this. And I haven't quite figured out why I'm like, why I feel the way that I do or why this is causing this much of a stir in me that I have to act this way. But it's worth taking the time to do that.

DJ Sir Daniel: Jay Ray, another one, another

Tashmica Torok: tell Nicki Minaj to call me? I'll give her a hug. I promise. I'll

DJ Sir Daniel: I asked Nikki Onika. You have the open invitation. Taj Mika is there for you. We don't have to, you don't have to continue on this path, but I am, I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.

[01:02:32] Where can folks connect with Popaganda?

DJ Sir Daniel: Jay Ray. I knew it was going to, this is exactly what I knew it was going to be.

I knew it was going to be fortifying and I want to know Our listeners to become your listeners and why don't you and your friends get with me and my friends

Tashmica Torok: friends! We could be friends!

DJ Sir Daniel: I want all of us to please follow propagate Popaganda Follow Tashmica and shannon get into their podcast as a matter of fact, um, both of you Please let our listeners know how they where they can find you and how they can get a piece of the Popaganda

Shannon Perez-Darby: Well, you can listen to the POPpaganda podcast anywhere you listen to podcasts. You can also find all of our episodes on poppagandapod. com. You can find our Instagram at poppagandapod. Any other things that we're making sure to let people know, Tashmica?

Tashmica Torok: You can join our broadcast channel where sometimes I share our behind the scenes, um, texts and chats because I am always harassing Shannon with something um, that I just found out or vice

Jay Ray: we do, we do that all day.

Shannon Perez-Darby: it.

Tashmica Torok: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So if you want to get into the, you know, our secret text thread that's on Instagram, um, yeah, those are all the places you can find us.

And, you know, I just want to really quickly say that part of what the Popaganda podcast is also about is that we really believe that the world can be different. And we really believe that you are a part of making that happen, that each one of us has a responsibility to the liberation of one another, that we are collectively in this together and that it can be joyful.

Like I know we're talking about like really hard things, but I hope you heard how much laughter also exists here because this is create, this is sci fi. We are world building and we are storytelling to help us all vision a way that the world can be different. And that's the part of the brain. Like we want, we want to just dive into that little part of your electric meatball and talk about transformative justice.

And abolition and see a world that we all can be where we can all belong and be cared for.

Jay Ray: my goodness, y'all, Shannon Perez Darby, Tashmica Torok, host of the Pop A Ganda podcast. You can get it anywhere. Thank you both so much for being here and just your light in this podcast space. This is amazing. And we just want to thank you for coming to Queue Points.

Shannon Perez-Darby: Thank you. I had an amazing time. It was so joyful. Um,

Tashmica Torok: So joyful. Thank you so, so much. And we will definitely extend the invitation as soon as we figure out how.

Jay Ray: Yes.

DJ Sir Daniel: Yes. Stay tuned for that crossover. The stay tuned for special crossover episode of Queue Points

Tashmica Torok: That's right. That's right. That's right.

[01:05:30] Transition

[01:05:35] Final Reflections and Farewell

Jay Ray: Um, sir, Daniel, this has been just an outstanding show real quick. For those that are joining us. Thank you so much for joining. Subscribe wherever you are joining from. Um, we would love that you can share the show with your friends, family, colleagues. If you like Queue Points, chances are they will like Queue Points too.

Please make sure they know about the show. Um, visit our website, Queue Points. com. You can subscribe to the newsletter. You can shop our store and get some dope, dope products. Um, but more than anything, for listening. We are so happy that y'all choose to spend your time listening to us and hanging out with us.

We really do appreciate it.

DJ Sir Daniel: And like I always say in this life, you have a choice. You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play. I'm DJ Sir Daniel,

Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray, y'all.

DJ Sir Daniel: and this has been Queue Points podcast, dropping the needle on black music history. We will see you on the next go round. Peace.

Jay Ray: Peace.

[01:06:38] Closing Theme