Hip-Hop, Addiction, and Healing with Terrence D. Walton of NAADAC

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Hip-Hop, Addiction, and Healing with Terrence D. Walton of NAADAC

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Intro Theme

Introduction and Opening Question

DJ Sir Daniel: Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast. I'm DJ Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray: and my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III and Sir Daniel, we're about to have a really important conversation.

DJ Sir Daniel: Jay Ray, I have a question for you. A serious question.

Discussing Hip Hop's Drug Problem

DJ Sir Daniel: Does hip hop have a drug problem?

Jay Ray: Ooh, that is a heavy, heavy question. Um, I do think we are at a point in hip hop culture. Where we really do need to be having serious questions about like substance use. Um, so yeah, I think hip hop does. I [00:01:00] think it does.

DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah, I, I'm going to say it does. I think we've been kind of dancing around the subject for years, because yes, hip hop has definitely had this weird relationship with, um, drugs and um, controlled substances, and I think it's time we've had an intervention.

Jay Ray: and We wanted to really bring in someone who can, um, help us parse through, um, the challenges as it relates to, uh, substance use.

Introducing Terrence Walton and NAADAC

Jay Ray: Um, addiction and recovery, and so we have a guest, so we are excited to welcome

Terrence Walton from NAADAC, the Association for Addiction Professionals.

Terrence, welcome to Queue Points. How are

DJ Sir Daniel: you for being here.

Terrence Walton: Hey, it is my honor and pleasure to be here. Been looking forward to talking to you gentlemen for a while. Glad we're doing it right now.

Jay Ray: Yes,

DJ Sir Daniel: Absolutely. Terrence. Can you please tell us a bit about the work of NAADAC, the Association for [00:02:00] Addiction Professionals?

Terrence Walton: Well, I'm happy to do that. You know, when I was listening to y'all's little dialogue a minute ago, and you know, s you began by asking the question, does hip hop have a drug problem? And it, you know, it's almost like whatever the subject was, you could have said. Do lawyers have a drug problem? Is there a problem?

In the answer probably would've been yes. And that's part of the reason why organizations like NAADAC, the Association for Addiction Professionals exist. Uh, we represent NAADAC represents everyone out there, uh, who some part of what they do is helping people or communities. Break free and stay free from addiction.

So in practical terms, that means addiction counselors. That means people who, who deliver [00:03:00] primary prevention services, those who are trying to keep people alive and well, whether they use drugs or not. Those who doing harm reduction services. Uh, people with lived experience, people in recovery themselves who are now professionals, helping others to recover.

Uh, listen, even, you know, like people who work in academic institutions and who are in addiction studies programs that are helping to educate the addiction workforce, NAEC exists to like support them, to help develop them, to equip them. Uh, we are a 5 0 1 C six, which means we're a nonprofit. Who can also lobby.

So we employ lobbyists, uh, government relations firm to help be sure that their policies and legislation and funding to help people, uh, go forward. So that's kind of who we are, been around for. 50 years, more than 50 years, I think 53 to be exact. Uh, always doing the same thing, even as drug trends change and as we've [00:04:00] innovated in finding new ways to equip, empower, and, uh, develop the addiction professional workforce.

Jay Ray: Wow. Thank you so much for that. Um, introduction to the work of NAADAC, the really important, uh, work and I think that actually leads into the first question.

Evolution of Addiction Treatment

Jay Ray: Um, can you talk a bit about, from your perspective, how the approach. To addiction treatment has changed for communities in particular black communities.

'cause when we think about it, sir Daniel and I, as we were preparing for this conversation, you know, we talked about the seventies and the, the, the heroin era, you know, coming out of the Vietnam War and then moving on to the crack era in the 1980s. And then now especially because we do a lot of, you know, our work in, in hip hop and talking about music with the lean and kind of the pill and the meth culture.

Can you talk a bit about how addiction treatment I. Has changed over the years.

Terrence Walton: well that's a great question, Jay Ray. And one of the benefits [00:05:00] of being a part of an organization that's been around so long and being a person who's been around in the field for more than 30 years, I've seen and been a part of some. Of that tran, you know, sort of that transition, that growth, that continuum, um, you know. know, I grew up during the crack epidemic, you know, as a, as a kid and a young man. Uh, and so I had a chance to experience and see the impact on communities, on my community, uh, on, on, on people I care about and love. And so I wasn't yet a professional, but I understood sort of the impact and the fear and the despair that that was, was happening.

And, and so especially in that era, you know, it was, I. Every community impacted, including communities of color, was demanding action. We were demanding relief. And initially that wasn't, that came in the form of, of, of tougher drug laws and lots of people were getting [00:06:00] locked up and, and you know, that might've been okay, except most people who get locked up, end up coming back out as they should and.

And then going back in. And so especially during a, during the, the height of the crack epidemic, there was a real focus on, on sort of law enforcement and hoping we could, we could gel our way out of that problem. And, and of course that wasn't possible. And so. There. At the same time as there was an increase in like law enforcement responses, there was also funding of initiatives that was designed to help make treatment more, more, uh, more accessible and effective and, and more available.

But part of the problem there, and this is not a criticism, it's just is what it is, is that most of the treatment approaches that existed. Like, let's say 40 years ago, most of them had primarily, if they're research based at all, had primarily been researched on people who look other than [00:07:00] the three of us.

You know, people that were, were, were, were not black, were not of a minority group. Most were men. Uh, and some of that stuff does work. Some of the interventions that were developed at that time applies across cultures, but some of them didn't. And if anything has changed as we progressed over time, there's been a greater acceptance of the fact. one size does not fit all. And there's, you know, an addiction is addiction. It happens in the brain, but it affects all areas of life, and there's lots that contribute to people getting sick and getting well, and a lot of that is about culture and values and beliefs and expectations in any culture.

And so.

Cultural Competency in Addiction Treatment

Terrence Walton: The big progress, I think, has been the recognition that none of us who care about this issue, and especially none of us who make a living out of helping people to get and stay well, I. Can [00:08:00] escape the fact that we have to understand the uniqueness of, of the diverse communities we serve in order to serve them well.

So that has resulted in not a plethora, but a variety of interventions that have been researched on communities of color. There's also, there's a couple really interesting interventions that utilize hip hop culture to, to help treat and prevent addiction. So that's been a big change. But, but I should say that, you know, even though the drugs have been very different, we went through the heroin, the first heroin epidemic, or one of the first ones, the crack epidemic.

Uh, alcohol is always a constant, you know, the meth piece, the, you know, the, the stuff that's happening now, it, there, there, there, there're different substances. But one way or the other, they're all really designed to do the same thing, and all of them, not necessarily equally, but all of them have the potential to get people from the point where they're not just [00:09:00] getting high, they're getting hooked.

DJ Sir Daniel: So listening to, to everything you've said and specifically around. The cultural competency aspect of your work. Um, Jay Ray and I, we, like Jay Ray said, we've, we've had this ongoing discussion about one within our community. There was a time. That being accused of being on that stuff was a no-no. That was something that, oh, we prided ourselves in, in not, in not being, um, the addict or the junkie not being the crack head.

It was okay, we were the crack dealer, but you don't want to be the crack head 'cause you don't want to be doing, you don't want to be doing favors for $5 in order to get a hit. You know, that, that, that was part of the, the cultural code in a sense when it came to, um, to drugs. But we still [00:10:00] have this very weird, um, relationship.

I've said to Jay Ray, we've had errors. Of drugs. Like we said, you had your, you had your heroin, then you had, you know, you had your Coke. And then of course marijuana weed has always been in the mix. And I think, um, except for, um, the people who were lacing their marijuana, those people got hooked on other substances a lot harder.

But then we, in the mid nineties, I know that we had this.

Hip Hop's Influence on Drug Use

DJ Sir Daniel: This huge resurgence of marijuana culture within hip hop. And one of his biggest, biggest figures, of course, is you know, Snoop Dogg who has gone on to transcend hip hop and become a just a cultural icon. So I think it's just so funny how we've been able to have this.

This kind of relationship with drugs where it's like, we're into it but we're not, and, or at least we don't [00:11:00] want to talk about it. Um, would you say, I have two questions. Would you say we have been able to be a little bit more free about our use amongst each other as far as saying, you know, that I, I may partake in this or that and joke around about it.

And then also, um. Within the, the, the, the hip hop culture in an industry that often glamorizes drug use, what strategies can help, um, artists recognize and address their, and address addiction before it becomes life threatening? Because I think that's the thing that we're seeing the most is a lot of, a lot of young people are being taken out, people younger than us.

Are being taken out by their drug use.

Terrence Walton: Wow, that's a lot, man. And all of it's important. So interestingly, you talk about that transition in the mid nineties, and so [00:12:00] I noted that too because that's when I sort of entered the field. That's when I became, you know, by the, you know, when I was on the grind as a drug counselor, learning addiction, learning how to help and all of that, and I was working with young people, I was working with teenagers.

I've watched the stats of drug use over time. There's a national household survey that's been done forever that people acknowledge, you know, confidentiality confidentially they've used in a certain time period, et cetera, and consistently for decades prior to the mid nineties, the one group that reported the lowest levels of drug use.

Including alcohol use, including marijuana use of any group was black young people. the

the lowest, it's almost the only measure out there where consistently we, um, we rated higher that our [00:13:00] results were, were more favorable than every other group.

Jay Ray: thing.

Terrence Walton: Listen, when I was in high school, and again, I'm probably got a couple years on y'all probably.

When I was in high school or grade school, like, you know, doing drugs was what those white boys did. We didn't do that, that we, that just wasn't a thing. We tend to get into that little later on in life, but, but not, not while we still in school.

Jay Ray: right.

Terrence Walton: But that began to change. I began to watch the stats change. I began to watch them change and even then, not being a professional, not having a whole lot of.

Research understanding. I connected the greater acceptance and greater use of, at that time marijuana among black youth because of hip hop culture. And I by the way, embraced it, used hip hop culture in my groups, thought that, in fact used some of the songs that glamorized weed in order to get a conversation going and getting [00:14:00] people to voice what they're feeling and doing.

And it was useful, but I have no doubt that that was. A, a, it, it wasn't art reflecting life. It was art impacting life. I'm sure that's true. And there was a, a widespread understanding, a belief that you could not get hooked on marijuana. And I don't think marijuana is the most evil thing out there. I'm not, I'm never on that.

I wasn't on that soapbox back then. It's not, it's not about that. There was a wide belief that, oh, you know, you can't really get hooked on that. Um, several folks found out differently, you know, and, and, and, and, hey, y'all may not remember this, but the one movie that sort of convinced people, I guess you can get hooked on weed, was Friday the first

Jay Ray: Yeah, the

first?

one,

Terrence Walton: Uh, I can't.

Jay Ray: smokey.

Terrence Walton: Smokey. Yeah, smokey. You know, we kids started [00:15:00] talking about that. Yeah. Well, I guess you can't get hooked, but my point is that, that while you know, I'm certainly happy that fewer kids today, fewer young people today are getting locked up and getting criminal records because of marijuana. Uh, I do recognize that, that our greater involvement.

What for many turned out to be harmful drug use really happened as a part of the hip hop culture for all the good that it did. So that I think is absolutely true. And so like one of the things that we do as addiction professionals, those of us who counsel and assess, and I don't do that anymore, but I re represent folks who do, is there's something called recovery capital.

One of you should have somebody come in talk about recovery capital in the black. Faith and recovery capital is a, is like the resources, external and internal factors that influence the likelihood that a person, if they start using drugs will be, will end [00:16:00] up having a problem with it. And if they do develop addiction, their probability for getting better recovery capital.

The higher your capital, the higher your probability of getting better. And one of the areas the determining, uh, one of the elements of recovery capital is like whether you are part of a culture of subculture that embraces drug use.

DJ Sir Daniel: Mm.

Terrence Walton: And the more to the more extent that is true, then you are much more likely to get involved in substances.

And, and the, and the likelihood of breaking free is tougher as long as, um, uh, that particular culture subculture has significant influence on you. So all that is real. It doesn't demonize anything. It just states this is kind of what we're dealing with. So I, I think part of the, the, the key. helping people to recognize, whoa, I may be [00:17:00] getting in trouble with this before it's too late, is not to try to counter the glamorization of drugs by demonizing them, but this doesn't work.

You know?

DJ Sir Daniel: Okay.

Terrence Walton: Do you feel me?

Jay Ray: I, yeah. And you know, this is unlocked a memory for me. Um, so I, uh, have never had a substance use issue with drugs. I did have a period of time when I felt like I was drinking too much. So substance use on that end. Um. What's interesting is what you just unlocked for me, and this is one of the oldest memories I had, going back to kind of what Sir Daniel was talking about earlier, where you didn't want to do it.

I remember my mother specifically, and it was involving music. It was when. Marvin Gaye was killed. [00:18:00] Right. And my, and I remember the conversations being had in my house around, oh, you know, he got, he got all messed up in that stuff and, you know, it affected him and blah, blah. And that's why it's, and that's why it's bad.

And that's why, you know, we can't have these folks out here. You know, when I see 'em with the glasses on, I know it was just a whole lot of, no, no. Yeah, this is the way to be not like this, right? And so you sit to that point that sits in you where it's just like you are trying to counter this, this thing that's considered bad with these models that you could, that are considered good.

And it is just like, and that's not real. I didn't know until I was in my twenties that like. Oh, you know, folks who are using substances are just using substances. You are drinking. They're, they may not be doing that. They might be doing [00:19:00] something else. It's just different. So, yes, no, I absolutely agree with what you were saying.

Terrence Walton: Right, and so like as sort of as a field in a society, we sort of discovered that partly was because of research that showed, like prevention programs that were based on educating you about how harmful drugs were, were just miserable failures that just didn't work. You know, kids would listen to that and become more interested in trying it.

Be for real. They would, they become more, more intrigued by it, you know, and the, the sort of, the basis of that life means one or two things. Either, you know, at that age you are not worried about that because you don't think it's going to happen to you. That's true. Um, but check this out. Here's something else that I noticed, especially.

Because all the adolescents I worked with were inner city youth, you know, who had tough circumstances they were dealing with, like right then, not just in their past, they had past traumas and current factors that put them at risk. [00:20:00] So some of them, they, they weren't scared of drugs because they didn't think it would happen to them.

They sort of had this, this myth about invincibility. They'd be invincible, but another portion of them, maybe even a larger portion, you know, they weren't. They didn't think they were invincible. They had, or sort of this belief that none of this really matters because I'll either be dead or in jail, you know, before I'm in my mid twenties. And so they, it was not an invincibility, it was like inevitability that that doesn't matter because, alright, if that's gonna happen, at least I can have some fun before I die or get locked up. That was real. Sometimes through like hip hop culture to through helping the youth and they be teaching me, Hey, let's dissect these lyrics.

What do these lyrics mean? Sometimes they'll allow them to give voice to that, to [00:21:00] recognize their own sense of fatality

and help them to begin talk, to talk about how does that affect your choices today? Uh, it was very powerful and I didn't even know what I was doing, but really I was too, too new, but, but it, but it worked.

And so my point here is that I don't like drugs glamorized. But the antidote is not to demonize 'em, it's to recognize they are what they are. To recognize that people use for reasons, people use either to feel good or feel better. People use either for pleasure or stimulation or relief or escape. All those are legitimate needs on, on any given week.

Brothers, I, I feel the need for stimulation. Like I, you know, I, I need to do something, you know, change the routine a little bit. I feel the need for pleasure. I feel I got a tough job, great job, and a tough job. And I got, I. School age kids and a wife. I'm trying to keep happy and a lot of responsibilities, so I want some just to have some fun and feel good.

[00:22:00] I also sometimes feel need to, to escape what I can't change, you know, for a minute or two, you know, for a, a, a weekend. And I also sometimes feel a very legitimate need to get relief. From what I'm feeling inside right now and all those are reasons why people try substances and why sometimes, depending on the circumstances they get hooked and recognizing that as a part of the human condition, the the risk of being alive and not some huge character moral flaw reduces shame and reduces the likelihood that people.

Will recognize when they're going on the wrong path, and if they've, and if they have fallen over the cliff, not be too ashamed to reach out.

Jay Ray: Hmm.

Empathy and Addiction

DJ Sir Daniel: You know, Jay Ray listening to Terrence speak reinforces what I've, what I'm always saying on here about how the general decline or decrease in empathy [00:23:00] amongst us is affecting us in more ways than we understand and. As somebody who works in the field and is working to, to help people modify their behavior or for harm reduction, you have to have some sort of a level of empathy for the person you're working with and realizing holistically that this is a human being that's experiencing something.

And I think for over the decades what we've. The constant is, the constant is, is, is that this world is, this world is on fire, and it's always been on fire. And like every, every decade that we spoke of on a national level, an international level, and right here in our backyards. We were going through something collectively, whether it was the Vietnam War, whether it was Reg Reaganomics, whether it is, um, uh, the, the, the, um, what were they [00:24:00] blaming Obama for?

HI, the HIV epidemic, whether they were blaming, um. The e uh, the economic status that when, um, Obama took over the recession.

I could not think of, re think of the word recession, but yes. When, so there was a co collectively, there's always something going on. And depending on how you had, like you said, Terrance, depending on your community,

depending on, um, your predispose, um.

Levels of, um, addiction. 'cause I think all of us have some type of level of addiction. For some of us it's food. Uh, for some, for other people, it's other things. Gambling, money, all that kind of stuff. But what I'm saying is you have those, um, natural predispositions, then you have the stuff that's going on externally that's affecting you.

So what I've noticed, and we've said this Jay Ray. In the past decade or so, what we've noticed is that the music has gotten really [00:25:00] sad. The B the BPMs have slowed down and it's gotten very sinister at times, and it's, and other times it's just a very bleak and it's matching what's going on in the world.

And so. Um, you mentioned administrations.

Jay Ray: Yes,

DJ Sir Daniel: This administration is no different than when we had Reagan in the office. All of those things. This, this administration just recently got rid of HIV prevention programs, so god knows what kind of fought fallout we're gonna have from that.

Impact of Current Administration on Addiction Services

DJ Sir Daniel: Um, but this administration, how is the current administration's policies impacting substance use services, particularly for marginalized communities?

Terrence Walton: Yeah. Well, you know, um, listen, this is, it's still really early in our new situation and even as early. As it is, there are real [00:26:00] indications that, um, that all of us who care about black communities, who care about other minority communities, all of us who are really invested in being sure that young people have the opportunity to thrive, you know, and to have a level playing field, of us who wanna be sure that people who. Need help can get that help and help is actually designed for them. All of that is at risk upfront, unapologetically at risk. And, and here's what I mean real quick, and I don't want to listen. Addiction professionals, you know, they probably tend to lean, uh, you know, more progressive, but not exclusively, you know, drug counselors in, in, in red states, you know, many of them voted for Trump. You know, they're not just Republicans, they're mega Republicans. That's the truth. So [00:27:00] this isn't really political. I've got political ideas. That's not what this is about. This is about, as addiction professionals, our code of ethics, our scopes of practice, um, our mission statements require us to deliver care as best we can.

That is suited for the person, the family, the community in front of us. It's a requirement.

Jay Ray: Right.

Terrence Walton: And two executive orders and there are lots of executive orders that, that have have occurred since January 20th at 12:30 PM Eastern Time. Lots of them, two of them back to back days, one on the 20th, one on the 21st, have had a, are are already having, and promised to have a huge impact on marginalized populations, being able to access the kind of care.

They need from people who look like them and have some similar experiences. It's the, [00:28:00] the executive order that reversed the EEO, um, stipulations from 1965.

Jay Ray: Yeah.

Terrence Walton: As well as the second executive order, and I may have gotten the order wrong, but the other executive order that essentially made it clear that not a dime of federal money, not one dime of federal money can be spent on anything that remotely looks like is designed to address diversity, equity, you know, or inclusiveness. In some detail with a number of examples of things you can't do and words you can't use, and any initiatives that exist right now, and there are lots of them that exist right now with federal funding, have to stop. And despite all the court actions, those things have stopped by and large. And so the many organizations, the nonprofits and community-based organizations that found [00:29:00] a way to get some federal funds so they could reach hard to reach populations, they are either actively having to purge their websites, having to try and do things really different than they sought out to do.

Um, find alternate funding or close down.

Jay Ray: Man.

Terrence Walton: So if this continues and we don't find ways to rise above this, you know, 'cause a lot of damage can be done in four years. If that doesn't change then, then we are at a point where. All the progress we made in being sure that we reach all communities, including those that represent marginalized, discriminated against populations, that all those efforts will have to cease and will, will, will begin to get back to the way things work, where we can't do research even to see what works better for certain people and that people will be getting [00:30:00] treatment that they hope.

Will be the right ones for them, but increasingly we won't know. That's true. And one other point, 'cause NAADAC is really about the workforce, about finding a diverse workforce because listen, anybody can help anybody. But if you are seeking help, and if you, hey, if you walk into a, a outpatient treatment center, you know you are a black, you know, older man who recognizes you having some trouble and you're, and your caseworker or your caregiver, someone say, Hey, you should go here and talk to somebody.

And you walk in that, you know, and you don't see anybody who looks like you. Uh, research shows you're less likely to engage there.

DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah.

Yeah.

Terrence Walton: And so all of that is at risk. Uh, so there's no doubt about it.

NAADAC's Commitment to Diversity and Workforce Recruitment

Terrence Walton: For instance, NAADAC has taken a, a, a position that while, you know, we won't use any federal funds in any way, that's not, you know, that's not permissible by [00:31:00] the executive branch or the judicial branch, but we are going to use the, the fees are the dues our members pay and our affiliate fees, and.

Revenues from our conferences. We're gonna use all of that, not just to continue our efforts to have a diverse and qualified workforce and to be sure we know how to deliver culturally humble and respectful care, not just continue efforts. We're gonna intensify them, we're gonna increase, um, because so much you know, you know, you know, you know.

The Impact of Substance Availability and Addiction

Terrence Walton: So Daniel, the way you began, like there's a lot happening right now that'll cause despair. They'll cause people to be in pain and fear, and that environment is ripe for addiction. Well, at the same time, you know, marijuana is more available than ever. Uh, other substances, you know, are more available than ever.

That's a, that's a potentially a [00:32:00] lethal combination. And so NAADAC is one of those organizations that even if it means. That we won't be qualified for future federal funding. We have no choice but to lean in and trying to continue to recruit people into the workforce who can serve and who represent multiple communities.

Um, and, uh, and being sure we are doing our part to be sure those who are treating addiction have what they need to treat. Our communities appropriately and there are ways to do that. So this is real and there's no doubt about it. Uh, and um, and I think I mentioned earlier that I think hip hop culture.

While on one hand it glamorizes, you know, certainly, uh, uh, weed and alcohol, certainly, you know, it's a, you know, but, but at the same time, it also gives voice to angst and gives voice [00:33:00] to injustice, and gives voice to lots of emptiness, and that is valuable.

If it can be processed and people can connect with it and then find a place of healing.

DJ Sir Daniel: Jay Ray, excuse me, Ru if I may Jay Ray. Uh, hop in real quick and ask this one last question.

Addressing Disparities in Addiction Treatment

DJ Sir Daniel: Um, we were talking about, um, it's funny, I was, uh, just privy to an organization, um, on a college campus that is actually celebrating and talking about more black men. Getting into the field of social work for this very reason, for the same reason of, of visibility.

The likelihood that you see somebody that looks like you, the more likely you are going to, um, to receive help or be open to receiving any kind of change. And I've all, I've wondered over the years, I've always heard that with the [00:34:00] onset of the opioid epidemic.

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

DJ Sir Daniel: That we were going to see more help because o um, and more support because opioids were affecting other communities more than black communities.

Right. So, and, and in my, in my old work, I would see, you know, we had the, the narcans readily available, you know, for, and stuff like that. Just wasn't here when people were, you know. Getting strung out on, on crack and or to drinking lean and all of those things. So in your work, would you say, did you say, did you see that disparity?

Like when there, when the, the, the opioid epidemic began to fluctuate? Did you see, oh, people were more than willing to put in funds and resources to make those things happen as opposed to, you know, before and after when other communities weren't being as. Were doing their thing and killing themselves basically.[00:35:00]

Terrence Walton: so Sir Daniel, if I didn't see that I'd. I

mean, I'd be, I had my head in this hand on purpose. It was obvious. 'cause remember I said I started in the mid nineties,

DJ Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm.

Terrence Walton: so I saw an experience as an addiction, a young addiction professional. I experienced the stigma on people I, I treated and the stigma on what I did for a living.

Stigma and Compassion in Addiction

Terrence Walton: So I experienced it, you know, uh, listen, you know, you know, addiction becomes stigmatizing for lots of reasons, including that at, at the, at its worst when addiction, it's at its worst. People do really stigmatizing things sometimes. So I get that. I, I get how you know, you know, mothers who end up deserting kids they love and, you know, you know, fathers who end up not taking care of families they're responsible for because of addiction.

I get why that stigmatizing. I get it. Um, and but the reaction back then, you know, [00:36:00] um, wasn't compassion driven and we gave. Lip service to, oh, addiction as a disease. You know, not, not a moral failing, but in practice, you know, the, you know, the, the, the law enforcement response and the, uh, and the, uh, shame that came from being addicted, especially to crack, was out of this world.

The contrast to the current, the more recent opiate epidemic was stark. And I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna tell you, you know, gentlemen, that caused great resentment among people who have been along for that ride. People who themselves are in long-term recovery, and remember how they were treated at their worst professionals, especially black professionals and brown professionals who were treating people.

It caused great resentment. You know, I get that. I. In [00:37:00] fact, I spent some time after letting people vent, saying all that is true, but let's make the most of that now. Now there's this greater this, this greater acceptance and this, and there was an influx of funds that may change soon, but there was an influx of money to do all fund all kinds of projects.

I said, that also can apply to us. I said, we can both recognize this ain't fair. Let's make the most of it and be sure our communities are, are benefit from it as well. Because it is a myth that the opiate issue only affected white communities. That's a myth. It affected us too.

Jay Ray: Absolutely

Terrence Walton: had a more severe response, but we, it absolutely, in fact, while other overdose rates are going down, ours aren't going down at the same rate as others.

That's true today. And so, yeah, you're dead on it there, and that's true. And, but probably, you know, maybe it's the, maybe it's my generation, but like, you know, I, [00:38:00] you know, I get mad and then I say, okay, all right, well that's life. Life ain't fair and people are not fair. And, and now let me see how I can make the most of this and.

Funding Challenges and Policy Concerns

Terrence Walton: The real risk right now is that even though we are still dealing with a a, a, a multiple drug crisis, that they're still taking lives and livelihoods and breaking up families every single day. There's the real risk that even with a president who doesn't drink, and a head of the Department of Health and Human Services, who is in recovery.

Even with that being true, uh, there's a likelihood that in order to, you know, provide, you know, mega tax breaks for higher income people and businesses, and in order to fund efforts to. Get immigrants out of the country. And this is way too political, but it's just the truth. It's a likelihood that a lot of the funding, [00:39:00] if we can't stop it, if we can't fit it, the funding to help people be able to access care is gonna go away.

One example, I don't wanna bore everybody with stats, but one example right now, uh, the budget reconciliation, which is the, uh, a, a way in Congress that the party in power can pass something without any. Opposition votes that they are, they have a package that, that, that costs for $800 billion in cuts from Medicaid.

They say savings, but those are cuts. Medicaid, man. In terms of, you know, Jay Ray in terms of providing access to care for poor people, for marginalized people, you know that, that that is the largest single provider. No matter what is said there, it's impossible to cut 800 bill, 880, I'm sorry, $880 [00:40:00] billion, almost a trillion dollars.

You can't do that without dramatically cutting benefits that is gonna be felt on the ground. I'm concerned about some of the opiate money that's out there being reversed. I heard of an example. Where that's happened. So yeah, these are things that my organization that NAADAC and our partners are trying to get in front of, trying to get to Congress, people who are in power now to say, Hey, this is how this is gonna affect your community, but it's real.

So the, the resentment about. How addiction is viewed now because of the impact of the opioid epidemic that's over now. It's about, oh, wait a minute. We need to keep those gains, uh, in order for people to, you know, keep being able to access care if they can't afford to pay for it themselves.

Jay Ray: Man. Oh, okay. Thank you for laying all of that out. I think what you just shared is so incredibly important for folks to really understand, [00:41:00] um, and that Medicaid thing really hits home. Sir Daniel knows all the stuff that's been going on in my world. In the last month or two. Right? So this is really, really important information.

So thank you so much for, for, for putting an exclamation point on that. Okay. We do have a couple more questions for you that, that are gonna be straightforward, but I gotta ask you this now.

Personal Reflections and Finding Joy

Jay Ray: Where, what is the sunshine? Where is your sunshine now? 'cause this all sounds so. Ah, heavy. What's your sunshine like? Where are you getting your joy from these days? Before we ask you those last couple of

Terrence Walton: Well, thank you for that, man. First of all, you know. As it, you know, I am not like a professional sometimes that I'm a father, that I'm a husband, I'm a friend. It's all at one

Jay Ray: all those things, right?

Terrence Walton: All those things, you know, and so my daily struggle, my daily battle, I. Like the battle of most people, including, especially [00:42:00] black men.

I know you're gonna be talking to someone about black men soon or, or have done so. I think that's important. We have a certain unique set of, of pressures that are not fully recognized, and my journey is never to forget what matters most and who matters most to keep that in focus. You know, first and foremost.

The, the people who live in this house with me, the heartbeats that meet here, that, that I'm responsible for being sure that they are well, they're loved. You know, I, you know, I'm, I'm probably grandfather age, but I have school aged children, including one who still wants to cuddle

and remind, and that reminds me all, actually, this is all that matters.

And so that, that helps to keep me balanced, but it also makes me determined to do what I can while I still have health and breath. A platform to make a better world for him. If I have an 8-year-old son and an 11-year-old daughter, if my 8-year-old ever goes on the wrong [00:43:00] course and ends up in trouble, want there to be places he can go to get help and people who care and understand and who have been trained and qualified to help him.

Jay Ray: Yeah.

Terrence Walton: And so. That makes me determined and in my experience in in life, that whatever the challenge is, no matter how hard it is, there is opportunity.

Jay Ray: Yeah.

Terrence Walton: And so what this is doing to the community is to recognize for a period of time our government is going to be working against us again. That's just the truth.

And you know, we might get some relief at midterms, but we might not.

Jay Ray: Right.

Terrence Walton: We might not. And so it is forcing all of us in a position to do so, to look for ways to [00:44:00] join together instead of competing. To work for common good. Define ways to fund the things we need funding from other sources, and it's resulting in all kinds of cre creative ways of approaching this.

It also means we have to rely on the whole community, the faith community, churches and other places of worship and, uh, to help us help people. Uh, there's a, a huge peer movement where people with long-term recovery. Either as volunteers or as professionals are helping others. NAADAC is training family members to provide better help for people they love.

'cause they may not be able to get help out there. That's what's gonna come out of some of this. You know that as we try and get through this. We are, we are going to find ways to help people and that'll bring the best out of us. It also forces us to become efficient, us to run our businesses like businesses [00:45:00] and, and, um, and, and, and, and, and.

So none of that's what I wanted. But, you know, most days, at some day in the week, I feel like it's hopeless. That means it's time to go to sleep. Time to take a nap, take a break

and get up. keep at it. And that's, and I, I believe that we will get through this, gentlemen. We're gonna get through it. Uh, and our committee will get through it.

Because frankly, I'm more worried about other communities because we're accustomed to this.

Jay Ray: Yeah.

DJ Sir Daniel: Hmm.

Terrence Walton: to person. We just are, we're accustomed to it.

You know, we never, you know, even when, uh, from a affirmative action at its best, that never meant that because I'm black. You know, I can be less qualified.

I've never missed that. It's lack. No father ever said to their kid, now, you know, because you black or you know, you don't have to worry as much. You know, you just be sure you do the best you can. 'cause they, they would say [00:46:00] the

Jay Ray: literally has never been said.

Terrence Walton: It is the opposite. It's like, don't do what you see them doing. You won't get away with it. You have to be more

prepared.

DJ Sir Daniel: Yep.

Terrence Walton: And so, so you know, this is the world we've, we, you know, we are accustomed to. And so it's in our genes. You know, we've inherited from our ancestors the ability. To prevail in spite of, and that's what's kicking in.

And like podcasts like this helps to do that, helps to, helps people to think about issues and to recognize, oh, none of us have time to be high all the time.

We

just don't. This is a different world. This is for real out here. And they love us to stay high and laid back and, and, you know, uh. They left that just leaning, you know, and no,

Jay Ray: Yeah,

Terrence Walton: we don't have time that, you know, we have to be as on our Ps and Qs as we can 'cause this stuff is real.

Jay Ray: man. [00:47:00] Okay. Two, we going to do two quick things. We're gonna talk about how folks can support NAADAC 'cause we gotta make sure that they do that. But

Terrence Walton: Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray: how can we, as a culture. Shift the narrative. 'cause like I said earlier, I was in my twenties when I finally figured out like, oh. People using substances in this way is not like, you know, they're not like bad people.

You know what I'm saying? Like, it's, it's, they're just people. Right. How do we shift the narrative culturally from viewing substances as like a moral failing to really understanding it as a health issue? Like what is your perspective on how we move the needle in that way?

Community Support and Education

Terrence Walton: Well, I reference like churches and houses of worship and, you know, and mosque and, you know, places, people were, I, I reference that on purpose because in communities of color, even for people who aren't religious, they don't go to church all the time. They, you know, churches and places of worship have some [00:48:00] influence.

And, and, you know, and increasingly churches and other places of worship have become a part of the solution. It can also be the place where the guilt and the stigma exists as well. So part of what organizations like NAADAC does and other organizations out there at the community level, I, I hope will do, is to educate.

Congregations about what addiction is, you know, and, and what underlies it. Talks about the trauma that a majority of people who end up with severe substance use disorder, what, what they have encountered and how that is playing itself out in their choices. Uh, where we can recognize, you know, how common addiction has been since the beginning of recorded history.

That's a reason. So it's about education. It's also recognizing that even [00:49:00] at his or her worst, an addictive person is a human being with a set of hopes and dreams

that could be realized and that. Like for people who, you know, let's say if, if, if, if, if you are religious, there's no higher calling than helping to set the captive free.

So it's about educating, it's about engaging families, some of whom have loved ones who are burned their bridges and they've given up, and so helping to reengage them. Offering hope is important there. Progress has been made, um, the, the, the, the, the, the fact that, that as a society we generally understand addiction better.

We generally have, uh, a more compassionate approach that is helpful, being sure the black community, uh, you know, [00:50:00] our community is on board is a priority. So, uh, hey, I think that things like this are really helpful, you know, increasing, especially younger people, um, you know, podcast and, and. Music, uh, helps to influence thinking and I think we're on the right path.

And I think folks in, in the hip hop community can help with that as well. I think they can help with that by, um, helping to give voice to what people are feeling, so drugs become less necessary. People have ways to, uh, to begin to feel again and to recognize when they're not feeling. I think that artists and entertainers have a role as well who can reach people.

I can't reach, I think the many artists out there who are in long-term recovery should start talking about that. Start saying, this is what my journey was. This is what this did to me. This is where I am now. You know, I think all of that matters, man. It helps.

Jay Ray: Yeah, man. Oh man, so much. So [00:51:00] Terrence, um.

Uh, thank you for being here. Thank you for the work that you do and for all of the folks that you work with in the Natac universe. We gotta get now Queue Points. We have to get connected to the NAADAC universe, right? This is

Terrence Walton: Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Jay Ray: How can folks support the work that Natac is

doing?

Supporting NAADAC and Final Thoughts

Terrence Walton: Listen, NAADAC is 14,000 members strong, but we need 14,000 more. It's just that simple. We, uh, I hope to, uh, get federal funding. I'm not holding my breath these days 'cause we're not, we're not, we're not letting up all the things that matter. So I encourage people to go to our website, naadac.org, naa dac dot org.

Go check it out. Most of the stuff there is free. We have hundreds of hours of webinars on every imaginable topic to educate people that's available there. We also had an opportunity for you to join as a member at a relatively low cost. And as a member you get a lot of extra stuff. Additionally, we need [00:52:00] members.

That is how we increasingly will be able to afford to lead nationally, um, opposition to, uh, the, you know, those particular policies that threaten. Those of us who need help. So that's the main thing. Go to our website, check it out. Uh, you know, my email there. Send me the email. Know that you, lemme know that you're doing that and become a part of this movement, uh, by joining.

Jay Ray: Man.

DJ Sir Daniel: Mr. Terrance Walton, we appreciate you so much for sharing with our. Viewing and listening audience, um, NAADAC, the Association for Addiction Professionals. Such a needed force within the community. And I just, we can only say thank you. Thank you for sharing your time, and thank you for sharing your knowledge with us today.

And, uh, please make sure you, [00:53:00] we will have the information posted on our, um, socials and, um, along with this particular, um, episode. And Jay Ray. I think, I think that's, um, it, I think we've done it. I think we, we, some questions have been answered. I know that more things are going to happen and I just hope for the sake of this new batch of, um, young people, this new generation of performers, that someone somewhere is on their side actually.

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm. Yes.

DJ Sir Daniel: we'll point them in the direction where they can receive help. If, even if it's from someone from NAADAC, hopefully they'll run into someone like a Terrence Walton that genuinely cares about their wellbeing. So, um, four Q Point's podcast. I'm DJ Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray: My name is Jay Ray. That's Terrence Walton. Thank you so much, man.[00:54:00]

Terrence Walton: thank you sir Daniel. Thank you Jay Ray. I'm glad you did this. God bless you.

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