Madonna: On the Borderline of Blackness

Episode Transcript

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[00:00:00] Intro Theme (Music by Danya Vodovoz)

[00:00:30] Welcome to Queue Points Podcast

DJ Sir Daniel: greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast. I am DJ Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III. What's happening good people.

DJ Sir Daniel: That's right. Queue Points podcast is the podcast dropping the needle on black music history. J Ray, we're about to do another one. We're about to do our big one as the kids say, but first of all, let's check in.

[00:00:57] Checking In: How Are You?

DJ Sir Daniel: How are you feeling?

Jay Ray: I am feeling really, really good. So I did the same thing by the way, Sir Daniel, that I did last week. I done cut my hair off. So, you know, I'm, but I, but I put it on real high earlier. So it's still a little chill in the room. I'm hoping that it holds on, but I am glorious. How are you?

DJ Sir Daniel: I, you know what? I'm fantastic. My air is on. It's going to, it's going to, it's going to stay on. It's going to frosty. And, uh, yeah, today was a great day. Today was just a day of, you know, running a couple of errands, but I was most excited about this moment right here, the recording of this particular episode, because J ring, like we were just saying off the air, the subject of this episode, Has pretty much been omnipresent in our lives.

Like for all of you Gen Xers out there, this Person has been just a mainstay in our lives and she's not going anywhere.

Jay Ray: Nope. Um, this is one of those figures that literally changed the game. You know, we sometimes, oftentimes when we're on Queue Points, because of the subjects that we talk about, we talk about those folks that are like game changers. This is like. Way at the top of like the game chain, the game changer thing. but as we do every week. You all, if you can hear our voices, if you could see our faces, thank you so much. That is the most important thing that you can do listening to the show, watching the show, sharing the show with your friends, family, colleagues.

If you love Queue Points, chances are they will love Queue Points. That really does help to organically spread the word about what we're doing over here. You can visit our website at Queue Points. com, which has had a little bit of a reef. We got some new goodies over there that you can check out over on our website at Queue Points.

com. You can also check out our blog at magazine. Queue Points. com and, uh, join our newsletter. And if you want to do us a solid, you can shop our store. You can get a stop tweeting, start wrapping shirt, as well as other merch. Dang, I had a mug right here earlier and it's down. Hey You could get a mug. There we go Mugs bags the whole nine yards.

You could get that over at the store store. Queue Points. com It'll keep the lights on over here in Queue Points land. We'd really really appreciate

DJ Sir Daniel: That's right. All right.

[00:03:31] Tonight's Topic: Madonna's Impact

DJ Sir Daniel: So Jerry, let's do this man. So we are, I will say Jerry, you and I do a really good job about making this show unmistakably black.

Jay Ray: it. Yes

DJ Sir Daniel: Um, we are like we say we are in the business of dropping the needle on black music history.

Jay Ray: we do.

DJ Sir Daniel: It's what we do. And there have only been a couple of people.

No, this is, she's probably the second person, non Black person that we've centered, um, on an episode of Queue Points. And I think by the end of this episode, you'll understand why. And it's not just about, um, blowing her up and gassing. Madonna up because at the time of this recording, we are a few hours away from her 66th birthday.

Madonna will be 66 years old. So, um, we are talking about Madonna because she has just, like we said, has just been a part of our lives for so long that we just can't not talk about her. And they're just some, some, um, totem poles in her career that we have to discuss on Queue Points podcast.

Jay Ray: Yeah, so You Madonna is one of those artists. I think what makes this conversation also really poignant is since the beginning of Madonna's career, she has always behind the scenes aligned herself with black folks somewhere. Either they are producing, they are writing alongside her, because we be forgetting that Madonna be writing them songs.

Madonna's pin game is crazy. Um, they're either producing. Uh, writing alongside her, singing with her, dancing with her. So. Yes, this is still black music. We are still talking about black music history when we are talking about Madonna because Madonna has been part of our lives as little black children. So me and Sir Daniel remember when Madonna hit the scene, you know, and how crazy that was.

So we'll get into all of that. But she deserves a show. I mean, she is that important.

DJ Sir Daniel: That's right. And we are going to be analytical. We're going to, we are going to have some critiques and, you know, offer some, offer some POVs on some things for sure.

[00:05:50] Madonna's Early Life and Career

DJ Sir Daniel: But I mean, if we look at her background, like she's, she was born into an alignment of blackness because she's, she's born in Michigan, which is, Detroit adjacent, if you will.

What, what part of Michigan is she from?

Jay Ray: So I thought she was I think she's a Canton girl, let me look up where Madonna from hold on I'm about to it's right here in front of me. I got my big Madonna cheat sheet right here. Madonna is from Oh, she's from Bay City, Bay City, Michigan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

DJ Sir Daniel: That's so she's from Bay city, Michigan, but of course, Detroit is, is where it's at, you know, Detroit is probably one of the blackest cities, you know, that you could think of at the time she was born, you know, right across the river or wherever she was from, you know, there's a whole city, there's a whole city of.

Blackness, you know, you've got Motown. Going on, you've got major civil rights movements happening in that city. So there had to, you know, some of that is bound to rub off on you through osmosis and, and, and the television, you know, television was really big. Right when she was, she was coming along. So I think that had to have colored her imagination and her drive.

She's a trained dancer. Right. And that's what took her to, on her journey, um, which started in the city of New York, the big city of New York back in the late, excuse me, the early, early, late seventies, actually early eighties. Yeah.

Jay Ray: Yeah. So Madonna, um, really does in so many ways. Madonna, when you look at her, even visually kind of encapsulates what, what, what I thought New York was in like the, the late seventies and the early eighties, because she just had that look like she was absolutely a New York girl. And the, the level of cool and artsy that you had to be on that she was kind of carrying.

So I would have never guessed. I didn't learn Madonna was from Michigan until later. I would have never guessed that she was from Michigan because she just seemed so connected to New York. And. It's interesting. So over on Instagram, uh, shout out to Michelle, uh, Michelle real chicks, rock said, Hey, when she first came on the scene, we thought she was Hispanic, right?

Because of how she carried herself, who she rolled with the look, all of that. So she definitely slid right into New York.

DJ Sir Daniel: She absolutely did. And, you know, she became, so New York at that time was kind of split up into two scenes. Of course you had the punk rock scene, which she was giving aesthetically, she was giving that, but then you also had, like J Ray said, the artsy downtown scene. Of course, it's wildly publicized that she was canoodling back in the days with Jean Paul.

She canoodled a lot with Basquiat. Um, you know, she didn't mind pushing color lines with her relationships because she was such a rebel. And, um, and what, what you're going to see and what I noticed is that she just was able to, um, conform herself or just make, um, um, shape shift to whatever was going on at the time and whoever she was around.

And like you said, it's been like, people always said, when you saw her, you couldn't take your eyes off of her. So you've got someone who is able to Um, be a part of any scene and fit in, and then she's got that it factor where people can't take their eyes off of her. So it was, you know, she was bound to become a star at some point.

She, if I'm not mistaken, she, um, auditioned for fame.

Jay Ray: I did hear that. Yeah.

DJ Sir Daniel: fame, which was a huge, huge get for an up and coming, uh, dancer artists in the, in the early eighties and fame, you know, her life was about fame, about the come up, about reaching for the stars and grabbing for your dreams and all of that.

That was such a Madonna trope, but she did not make that cut, but that didn't stop her from, you know, becoming a part of the dance scene and going to the dance interior, which was a huge, she was, she became a part of club culture and was always in the dance clubs, uh, honing her skills and, you know, just being one of the cool kids and being a trendsetter.

Jay Ray: You know, thinking back to the journey, right, there is a legendary tenacity and persistence that Madonna had on her journey to the come up. So, you know, being a, being a star at that level. Is a thing that people pursue and want, and it is very clear that Madonna wanted that as she was going to stop at no end to get it.

But, and I know we're going to talk a bit about truth or dare later, but I do want to bring up something that stuck out to me. Um, as I was getting ready for this show, Madonna's was talking to her dad on the phone and was like, Hey, who coming to the show? Like that. Oh, and by the way. just to let y'all know.

So you might not want to come both nights. You might just want to come one night, but anyway, she said, so the dad says. Well, hey, can you just tone it down? She was like, tone it down for you. She was like, I'm not going to do that because that would compromise my artistic integrity. And that stuck out to me because it was like, okay, not only was this woman committed to being a star.

She was also not going to be told when to stop. And we see that throughout her entire career.

[00:12:21] Madonna and the Ballroom Scene

DJ Sir Daniel: The entire career when it wasn't cool for certain people, if you looked like Madonna, you weren't supposed to hang out with the gay kids in the ballroom scene and you know, that's what she did at one point and that's how we got to, um, Madonna. And Vogue becoming such an anthem and her latching on to dancers from the ballroom scene.

Of course, you know, there's, there's lots of conversation around, you know, did Madonna make ballroom or did Madonna, um, blow up ballroom or did ballroom blow up Madonna? There's always that, that conversation of which came first, the chicken or the egg. And I don't know, maybe both things are true. But she, again, in her aligning herself with blackness, she found this underground scene.

She loved the underground scene regardless.

Jay Ray: scene.

DJ Sir Daniel: And here is this black gay ball, black and Hispanic gay ballroom scene in Harlem, all throughout New York. And she is soaking it up and eating it up. And she taps into it, of course, in the early nineties, taps into that scene for, um, Vogue, which of course is, was a huge and major hit for her iconic and still a part of her repertoire to this day,

Jay Ray: Yeah.

DJ Sir Daniel: but it couldn't get there far without the authenticity of the people in the scene being with her and surrounding her.

And as we see, Madonna is a master of. bringing of bringing those people around her and surrounding herself, latching on to people, um, you know, that will, um, give her authenticity as well as You know, lend to her talent.

Jay Ray: yeah, so it's interesting that you, that you, you, you talk about that because I do think Especially as we look back and Michelle mentioned this over in Instagram Jelly Bean Benitez, right? So Madonna's first album Jelly Bean is all over it. Oh, by the way, this is Jelly Bean's debut album What up, Ski? This came out in 84, so this is celebrating 40 years this year.

This record includes the Madonna written, Sidewalk Talk, which is right there. Boom. And, but, one note, me and Sir Daniel saw this. When they were, when they were selling this album, they were saying featuring the Mexican. They weren't even like plugging the Madonna song, which is really interesting, because Madonna was still a new star then, like her debut album had just come out.

Yes, it had a bunch of hits, but you know, it takes, it took time back then for stuff to really cook. So the, the big thing that they were talking about on this was the Mexican, but meanwhile, Sidewalk talk written by Madonna's on this joint. So you have jelly you have the jelly bean thing and so you have freestyle and all of that stuff happening Then right after that madonna is a like you said a master with how to surround herself, right?

She needs to go to the next level. Who does she call? She calls up nile rogers like now I need a hit. I need some records, right? Nile rogers comes in and we get the like a virgin album, which changed the world

DJ Sir Daniel: Yes.

Jay Ray: Master of Gathering folks. She needed jelly bean to make that first record pop to make that Madonna album pop to come out the gate Nile coming out the gate. She just has a really A history of doing that and all of a sudden the people that she surrounds herself with become like famous too. It's in an interesting way.

She was collecting people.

DJ Sir Daniel: She was a collector, you know? Okay. So this is my analogy for Madonna. Madonna is the white girl that your uncle brings by to the cookout that he dates. The white, you know, that one white girl that he dates and he, you know, he brings her by and she's, you know, she's, she's down by law. She's cool. Every now and then you got to give her the side eye and you got to remind her, Hey, Hey, look, we don't do all of that

around

Jay Ray: here. We don't do all of that. Sharon, you doin too much.

DJ Sir Daniel: You doing too much, but you know, she wants to come to the cookouts. She does a mean electric slide. She's able to do that. So you are, and she, she, she washes her hands. You know, you give her some passes every now and then. And then we're not even going to talk about the biracial children that she had for your uncle.

So she brings them around, but you know, she Madonna is, is that person. That's my analogy of Madonna. When it comes to the black community, she's, she's welcomed. But every now and then she does some weird stuff and you're like, what are you doing? But you, but she's still kind of cool. So you're like, okay, Sharon, you know, chill out and just, you

Jay Ray: Eat this potato salad, Sharon, and be quiet.

DJ Sir Daniel: potato salad.

You didn't make it. Thank God. But you're welcome to come in. But it, but, and I'm not trying to just reduce her to just that. But that's, sometimes that's how I think about her and her relationship to the black community, because like I said, she was always there. Madonna was always there. Even, and we kind of was like, even when she went away and she got that fake British accent and be like, well, girl, you thought she was from the hood.

But no, that's the relationship that we've had with her. And you mentioned, um, just her unmatched audacity, Madonna learned what she did was she learned. Early that star power increases other star power. And so Madonna was completely unafraid to exploit. And I do, and that's the only word we can use to exploit her life.

Or anyone that is intimately involved with her at the time. Cause

Jay Ray: better or for worse.

[00:19:01] Truth or Dare: Behind the Scenes

DJ Sir Daniel: better or for worse, let's take, um, um, the truth or dare, um, documentary, first of all, groundbreaking, because that was like the, the beginning of reality television.

Jay Ray: yeah.

DJ Sir Daniel: And we got to see her, we got to see behind the scenes and, but there were people, they're going through things there.

Do you recall Jerry? She had like this, this chubby white girl that was there. I

Jay Ray: Oh, she was an assistant. She had been assaulted. It was a lot.

DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah. Right. She got assaulted on tour and they kind of, kind of glazed over it.

Jay Ray: Baby, they put her on the camera.

DJ Sir Daniel: They put on the cameras like, yeah, they found her with her panties around her ankles and a little

Jay Ray: It was a mess. Baby, that would not fly. It's 2024. You'd be like,

DJ Sir Daniel: but Madonna's like, you know what?

We're keeping that in the film. We're keeping

Jay Ray: keep that.

DJ Sir Daniel: That's good. That's good. We're going to keep that.

Jay Ray: Um, my

DJ Sir Daniel: But you know, the dancers, Jerry, the dancers we talked about. So the gentlemen that were a part of and made the Vogue video, um, were actually gentlemen that she met in the clubs and they were part, literally part of houses in the ballroom scene.

And those guys did not know what they were signing up for. And we. In 2016, they did a documentary called Strike a Pose, where they were able to share their stories about how, for better or for worse, Madonna came along and changed their lives. Those guys just had no idea what being a part of her tour and that documentary was going to do to them in their lives.

Jay Ray: So I don't know. So this is, we're talking about the late eighties, right? Early nineties, truth or dare comes out in 91. I guess Blonde Ambition was 1990.

DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah, that

Jay Ray: I, I don't know that we had a concept of what. A true behind the scenes look at a celebrity was in particular this diverse group of people. You got black women, you have queer folks, right?

DJ Sir Daniel: hmm.

Jay Ray: Who are not trying to shrink and they're not trying to play the back. They're just like being themselves and being encouraged to be themselves fully. That is, was different in 1991, right? You can do that. We do. They do that all day on YouTube. Now, in 1991, that wasn't a thing. So, I can understand how One, you want to be a, you want to be a star too.

So the cameras are on. You're excited, right? Your boss is there. She's Madonna. You're excited to be on tour. You want to be part of it, the experience. But these men ended up, they, so they ended up, three of them ended up suing Madonna. So Oliver, Kevin and Gabriel, rest in peace to Gabriel. Um, Ended up suing Madonna in 1992.

She ended up settling the lawsuit in 1994, but these, uh, men, um, said that they were experiencing emotional distress. It was an invasion of privacy lawsuit. So here's all the things. Invasion of privacy, fraud and deceit, intentional misrepresentation, suppression of facts, and intentional infliction of emotional distress for exposing their private lives in 1991.

That's a lot, right? And so I can absolutely see, um, I can absolutely see how they would have felt like, I don't know, or not knowing what to do excited in the moment. And then afterwards, like different. So Daniel, we know in 2024, all the contracts are very clear. Um, you w wouldn't, you can't see the final edit.

We're recording all of this. You're signing up to be part of everything. If you don't want to be part of it, that's fine. You don't have to take this gig, right? It's a different world.

DJ Sir Daniel: Completely. Nowadays, these kids are like, Oh, sign me up for, I'm gonna be a baddie shot o'clock. Sign me up. Oh, I'm a, I'm a, I'm allowed to fight. Oh, sign me up for all of that. These kids nowadays are built completely different. They would have signed up for all of the, um, for all of the, uh, the, the shenanigans to sign up for the fame or the, the, uh, what looks like

Jay Ray: looks like

DJ Sir Daniel: And what could have been and what they, I guess, perceived at the time was going to be a life changing, um, money moment possibly. And let's talk about Oliver Oliver. His story was so, I think that was his name,

Jay Ray: Yeah, the straight brother.

DJ Sir Daniel: the straight, the straight

Jay Ray: Yeah, he had the blonde hair. Yep.

DJ Sir Daniel: he, I mean, his. Story was so exploited to the point because he was saying, you know, he is straight and then he was, um, the only straight guy in the cast of dancers and he fought with that tooth and nail.

It became a storyline. If that was a reality show, That would have been his storyline. And it would have been all on Twitter the whole time talking about people a little bit, a bit discussing his sexuality. And that again, like we said, Madonna ate that shit up.

Jay Ray: Mm hmm.

DJ Sir Daniel: because it just propelled her further and further into the spotlight.

And Jerry, I think one of the most poignant parts of that documentary is when, uh, one of her near dwells at the time, um, God, his name just

Jay Ray: What Warren Beatty.

DJ Sir Daniel: Warren Beatty was sitting there like he's

Jay Ray: He does not want to be on camera. He's like, girl,

DJ Sir Daniel: He's like, I don't want to do this because he's he's a seasoned

Jay Ray: he, right.

DJ Sir Daniel: Um, he knows about all the contracts and how you know, his management is probably going to be pissed at him for for For being in this and signing his rights away. And so he's like, why do you want to do this? Why do you, this is insane. It was unheard of to her, to her credit, to her being a visionary.

And just like I said, at the, at the top, her being just audacious, having the audacity to do this is going to propel her to the heights of stardom. But like you said, J Ray, she had no qualms. Her drive was unlike. She has one of those, a Hemi engine four drive, like Madonna was, I'm going to be

Jay Ray: not a Dodge Hemi engine as the Madonna.

DJ Sir Daniel: did. Remember when she was on American bandstand and she told Dick Clark, she said, I want to rule the world.

Jay Ray: She literally said that. And, and that's wow. And, and we literally did for a period of time. So let's put this in perspective, y'all. Um, when we're talking like big, huge superstars of the 1980s that are. that are, that are her contemporaries. She's the newest of the crop, right? So you're talking Prince, you're talking Michael, you're talking Tina Turner and Madonna's in there.

Like she just got here. All of these other kids been doing it. You know what I'm saying? They have done all the things they have done. Madonna just got here. That drive is crazy. But also I does, I do think it speaks to. Um, that undeniable talent, that thing, she recognized that she had the thing. She exploited the thing.

And here we are talking about Madonna in 2024 deservedly. So, um, and yeah, I, I think the other thing about Madonna. So we talked about her collecting people. So we just talked about Warren Beatty, but what was also interesting is in, uh, In Truth or Dare, we have the whole storyline of Sandra Bernhardt showing up and all of a sudden she's her best friend and now Sandra Bernhardt is a, is a topic.

DJ Sir Daniel: Yup. Madonna. She just had a talent for collecting people. Like we said, she, she collected, she was, she was hanging hard with Debbie Mazar, if, if she could. If you're not familiar, Deb Mazar is like a true New York, um, socialite, actress, it girl, chef. She's, um, she was in a lot of Spike Lee's movies, just like a real New York centerpiece in the early eighties and nineties.

So she's hanging with her. And as Madonna's climbing, Oh, I'm a hang with Sandra Bernhardt. She's a comedian. She's a it girl. We, the two of us are just big mouth broads and we're going to be everywhere. Just causing a scandal. They're going, they're popping up on Arsenio Hall show, talking mess with Arsenio Hall.

And then she's like, Oh, Rosie O'Donnell, I know you're gay, but I'm not going to spill your tea in front of everybody, but you're going to hang with us and we're all going to run around and just cause a scandal and just be the, the big mouth broads that are everywhere and are funny. And we're coming to your party and we're going to cause a scandal.

And then, um, Who else did she add to that? You know, I think Rose, yeah, Rosie O'Donnell, I think was about there. Cause that's when she, she started in, um, she was in the movie, uh, with the

Jay Ray: Uh, uh, uh, uh, there's no crying in baseball. Leave it there. Oh my, there's no

DJ Sir Daniel: So exactly. So, you know, she, again, she figured out early.

Oh, star power and star power. That's that's going to ignite something. We were going to amplify each other just by being around and just causing a scandal. But Jerry, um, we've uncovered that recently Sandra Bernhardt was like, Oh yeah, that ain't all what it seems to be. Right. That she realized that Madonna was a collector.

Keith Haring.

Jay Ray: and it became clear over time because people would fall off, right? People would just kind of fall away like they would be there for a minute and then they would just kind of fall away And you're like, oh, she's like a collector of people. Okay, so this is the thing to do at the time And I'm sure Madonna is one of those creatives that like Latches onto folks that are filling her up with the thing that she needs at the time I want to highlight in particular in the picture that we're looking at right now So I'm gonna start from the right and I'm gonna come backwards.

So you have Madonna on the far, right? You have Sandra Bernhardt in the middle and on the left you have Keith Herring who is such an important artist, but I will say this no matter the size Season, no matter the reason, Madonna will call Keith's name. She did it all throughout truth or dare. She's been, she did it throughout the, the, the celebration tour that just, that just ended.

She has always celebrated her friend Keith. Um, and so it's great being able to see Keith kind of in this picture as well, because he is one of those friends that, um, was like, what? Beyond the collector like she was that was like her boy from back in the day in New York. So yeah,

DJ Sir Daniel: I think it bears to say that we should say that. Yes. And Keith is a representative of Madonna's allegiance to the gay community because I think she realized very early that the gay community was I mean, her staunchest supporters. She realized that very early. And so she's, she would collect Hollywood friends, but she was very loyal to her supporters for sure.

And, but you know what else? She was a collector of Jerry. She was a collector of cultures.

Jay Ray: Baby those eras baby. There are so many Madonna era

DJ Sir Daniel: All right. So Jerry, what, what's your favorite Madonna? Um, Madonna era or cultural appropriation, um, avatar.

Jay Ray: So we talked about it at the top My favorite era is kind of, okay, so it was her Chola Mami era, but that was also kind of like her punk adjacent era, which is the very first Madonna era. First Madonna era goes up for me. She had the big bangle, uh, bracelets all up the spiky hair with the black mesh and the like.

Buckles and she's doing a lot of a lot of this. I live for that girl. That's my girl The girl that wrote sidewalk talk is my girl

DJ Sir Daniel: So I, first of all, there's so many cultural personas to choose from,

Jay Ray: There are there are many

DJ Sir Daniel: there's like Harajuku Madonna, there's, um,

Jay Ray: cowgirl madonna

DJ Sir Daniel: Girl, Madonna, um, there's, um, uh, Kabbalah, Madonna. There's just so many of them. And it's like, what to choose, what to choose. But I squarely, and we're going to talk about Madonna and the influence of black music.

In her career, but I squarely appreciate pop Madonna. Like I, I live for the, like you said, that era that she came along. I live for when she moved into the, the neon colors and the, the, um, the see through, um, mesh and the big bows. You literally every girl in New York at one point could literally dress like Madonna for under 10.

If they went to. any of those corner stores because you can get a glove and cut the fingers off. You can buy a bunch of those, um, day glow bangles are like 10 for a dollar or whatever. And you can have them coming all the way up to your elbows. The, the, um, The different colored socks, the, the layers of pebblum and, you know, put on some, some, um, some dancer sneakers underneath them.

And you can look and get a leather coat from the, um, from the vintage store and you could be Madonna. There were like, um, million Madonnas on the street. I remember seeing those ABC reports about Madonna taking over the world and all of those, she had like all the clones. That's why when we see. The Swifties, we kind of chuckle because it's literally history repeating itself.

We see the Swifties wearing their cowboy boots and whatnot, trying to be Taylor Swift. We lived through that. We saw all the white girls trying to be Madonna. And the big bow, the sideways bow,

Jay Ray: That bow was gigantic. Okay, just running around here. Um, yeah, Madonna and the and the cultures, um, we definitely, we'll get to, we'll get to the Madonna's Black era because it is a very particular, and one of, an era I enjoyed. I absolutely enjoyed Madonna's Black area. But before we go there, right? So Madonna, to your point.

[00:34:48] Madonna's Controversial Moments

Jay Ray: Recognize the importance of exploiting her, her life thoughts, feelings, and all of that, because it ultimately, all of this stuff led to record sales and Madonna, there was something, there was a quote in one of the articles from when, uh, the dancers, uh, sued her and she said, Everybody else does like, it's like whatever to her, everyone sues her and for her, that controversy was okay for her.

You know what I mean? It all mattered. So she is a woman who was not afraid of controversy. So when, okay, so sir, Daniel, here's the thing. When I'm side eyeing these new school kids,

DJ Sir Daniel: which we do

Jay Ray: I be, which we do quite a bit. It's not because I'm just like, I'm just like, girl, I'd live through the Madonna era with this is nothing.

This is nothing. We've seen it all.

DJ Sir Daniel: absolutely. And we cannot talk about Madonna without talking about her biggest co conspirator at the time. And that was MTV,

Jay Ray: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm

DJ Sir Daniel: MTV and Madonna were a match made in heaven. Like she lived to be in front of the camera and they needed somebody, they needed content because they were the biggest content creator at the time.

They needed content and we ate it up. Little do you know we were eating at such an early age. And so, And so she, just the fact that we, um, that Madonna was MTV's biggest, um, star at the time, just think about how her singing like a virgin, first of all, when she was singing about On MCV awards, wearing a wedding dress and singing about being anything but virginal and writhing around, like Jerry said, her favorite thing to do was to writhe around, writhing around on the floor, rolling around in that good, in that good Sunday, white wedding dress and singing like a virgin shot their numbers through the roof.

Jay Ray: was such a moment In time today by today's standards tape in 1984 crazy So we're we're also of course celebrating the 40th anniversary of the mtv awards but Seeing her roll around. I think that was 84. Maybe that was 85, but whatever. Seeing her do that on that stage was a moment in time. And you're absolutely right.

My favorite, my favorite Madonna MTV moment, though, is

DJ Sir Daniel: I know what you're going to say.

Jay Ray: it's this is like, this is like Kabbalah era Madonna because she has like, she's the pulled back. This is so this is like, oh no. No, no, no. This is like 94. So this is like 90. This, this is, yes. So she's coming out of black era Madonna. So this is around that time.

And this thing gets Chuck. She's doing an interview with, I think Kurt, not Kurt Loder. Who was the other, who was the other Tabitha Soren. And this compact comes flying up and she's like, don't don't invite. Don't oh, is that Courtney? Don't invite her up here. And of course, Courtney Love peeks

DJ Sir Daniel: Tabitha was like, you want to come up? Even though Madonna's like, oh, don't. Courtney just wants attention. Just Tabitha's like, oh no, you want to come up? Come up.

Jay Ray: Baby Courtney love Popped her behind up there on that stage and It was a moment in time. I will never forget the look on Madonna's face. Madonna was unhappy. Mm

DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah, shoot out for whatever reason, you know, um, Courtney love, who of course is a rock star in her own right, the front woman of whole, but was also married to Kurt Cobain at the time. Um, for whatever reason, just didn't see it from Madonna and vice versa. And so that, yes, that was definitely a fun moment.

But yeah, when you think about it, MTV and Madonna have had a long standing relationship, which helped Madonna. and courting other corporations and courting, um, sponsors. And we cannot talk about, remember that moment in time when Madonna and Pepsi were in bed together for this huge release of the, um, what was that, the Express Yourself album?

Jay Ray: that was, that was the, um,

DJ Sir Daniel: 89. No, that was 89. And it was, um, expressions of that era. And of course the song at the time was, um, like a prayer,

Jay Ray: yeah. So I think that was the like a prayer album. So it was after it was right after that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, express yourself was on that record. So I do. So this was a big deal because Madonna had gotten a Pepsi deal. And baby, you was somebody, if you got a Pepsi deal, because remember Michael Jackson had a Pepsi deal. And Madonna was get, got her a Pepsi deal. And it's like, okay. And back then kids, I remember this because we all did it. Your big stars. These kids ain't ready. The big stars premiered their music videos on network television. It wasn't going, it would premiere on an MTV too, but it was going to be on like ABC and stuff.

So we got the word. You remember Sir Daniel Madonna is going to debut her new video on TV. Like a prayer is sponsored by Pepsi moments. We're so excited. We are going to watch the video and we did watch the video.

DJ Sir Daniel: we did. So here's another thing. So what they did was they, they had the music video, the long form of like a prayer, but then there was also a commercial cut for Pepsi.

Jay Ray: Uh huh.

DJ Sir Daniel: so

Jay Ray: Madonna with her Pepsi and her like little blonde streak. Mm

DJ Sir Daniel: She had the brunette hair going. She had a whole new look. She was brunette this time with a streak, um, with blonde hair. And, um, but the big deal was, I guess the execs at pep didn't see the final cut because Madonna and all her, first of all, and all her Catholic and her Catholic glory decided, you know what, I've been a Catholic girl all my life.

Let's just go ahead and bring Catholicism into this. And, you know, she's clutching rosaries throughout the video,

Jay Ray: crosses.

DJ Sir Daniel: this crosses, and the piece de resistance. She had a black Jesus that she kissed in the mouth.

Jay Ray: A fine black Jesus that she kissed in the mouth.

DJ Sir Daniel: Now the kids y'all might know this, this Jesus as Leon, who is most famously known for his role in the five heartbeats at delivering the line. Ain't nobody coming to see you. Otis?

Jay Ray: was the tempted that was in The Temptations because he was in the same thing. People get that movies confused. Yeah, that was the that was from The Temptations. Yes, he was in both.

DJ Sir Daniel: he wasn't both.

Jay Ray: He was in both.

DJ Sir Daniel: You're absolutely right. So he is famous for that and for and for all your reality tv shows, he was also together with Cynthia Bailey from the Real Housewives at one point

Jay Ray: I did not know

DJ Sir Daniel: of her daughter. Yes, yes, yes, they were.

He's been on Housewives of Atlanta a couple of times making appearances. But yes, so Leon, um, There's a portrayal of, um, uh, this black man being put in jail and beat up by the police. It's all the, you know, the Madonna being controversial, check, um, challenging racism, um, sexuality and Catholicism and wrapping it all into a pleasant little, um, bowl and handing it off to Pepsi and Pepsi's like, Hey,

Jay Ray: Hey, hey, hey.

DJ Sir Daniel: of selling soda. We don't know nothing about this. Cross burning or nothing like that, man. And you got the Catholic church breathing down our back. Oh no, we didn't sign up for this.

Jay Ray: That deal went South so fast. So like a pretty it happens the deals done the next day. Like it's a wrap. You can still see the commercial of course or like YouTube's go watch it. It's a great commercial. Um, and if you haven't seen like a prayer go ahead and watch it but controversy. It's a thing and, and she did not stop

[00:43:54] "Justify My Love"

Jay Ray: madonna had always been sexual. That was like, not a surprise. Justify my love was different in so many ways. And it was also kind of the real beginning of her like hip hop, like really that infusion of hip hop. Into her work, but she was about to do a thing did justify. My love did a thing. I didn't even see justify my love until one.

I don't know. I think I saw it at like a friend's sleepover because the is the friend's dad had the tape. That's the only way you could see justify. My love was on VHS tape

DJ Sir Daniel: I did the same thing. I went to a friend's house and they had the tape. So Madonna eats controversy for breakfast and she knows that controversy mean equals sales. And so she came out the bat. She came out swinging with this one because she was like, I'm going to delve into, she's probably, somebody probably took her to, in her tours of Europe, somebody probably took her to the red light district and took her to the, to the S and M district and to all

Jay Ray: and she was like, I'm doing this.

DJ Sir Daniel: She's like, Oh, I'm getting me a leather harness and I'm turning it out when I get back to the states. And so she, so she's delving into S and M Dom, um, Dom, um, dominatrix and, you know, having those types of scenes interwoven into the video. And, uh. The song, nobody's even really talking about the song.

They're talking about the visuals,

Jay Ray: Yeah.

DJ Sir Daniel: everybody loves to call them today. The visuals of this particular song, because it, it, it, it, it characterizes her as, you know, this wanton woman sneaking around a hotel, you know, to her lover. And she's like, what are you going to do? Well, it's very, it's a very, listen, that, that song was so controversial, but the lyrics are very sparse.

Jay Ray: Oh, yeah, yeah. It's really all about the, the, the bed that's created with the keyboard and that that beat. Yep,

DJ Sir Daniel: which of course was, um, public enemy, I was going to say lint, but it wasn't necessarily lint, which ended up in another

Jay Ray: It was right. So it's a

DJ Sir Daniel: had to come get their coins from Madonna.

Jay Ray: yeah. So there's a lot there's a lot with this song. So Interesting factoid, by the way. Um, we didn't know this at the time because shout out to Maurice who's over in Instagram. Um, Lenny Kravitz did write, produce the song. The lyrics though were written by Ingrid Chavez. So, the story goes, I think Ingrid had written the lyrics either to Lenny or to Prince at the time.

They might have been to Lenny. Anyway, Lenny was like, I'm playing around in this Madonna bag right now. So I'm going over here and take this song over there. And that's how we get Justify My Love. Ingrid Chavez didn't even know, apparently, that it had happened until Prince was like, I think I hear your lyrics on the radio,

DJ Sir Daniel: like, girl, did

Jay Ray: like Prince knew that it was an Ingrid Chavez thing because he knew how Ingrid Rowe was like, I think I'm hearing you on a, on, on a situation.

Right? So it was a lot going on with justify my love. So you got the public enemy thing. So the bomb squad, so you have public enemy, right? Who is also the, the blackest group in hip hop at the time. Okay. Sampling was different then, right? It was a different time because people was just kind of taking whatever they wanted to use and they're just kind of using it.

We hadn't gotten to an all samples cleared biz marquee level of stuff yet. So. Even though the, the, the, the, the breakbeat is also a sample, the specific way Madonna used it is the public enemy way. So the bomb squad is like, and Chuck D is like, hold up.

DJ Sir Daniel: That's ours.

Jay Ray: us right there. And we're in this Madonna. What is happening?

I don't know if we,

DJ Sir Daniel: is happening here?

Jay Ray: up for all of that. So justify my love was controversial. On so many fronts, you have a writer who is like, I didn't even know that that song was going, was happening the way it was happening. And here it is. You have a, a, a production team who's like, what the heck is going on?

You have this hyper sexual video that no one can show on TV.

DJ Sir Daniel: Cut

[00:48:53] Madonna's DIY Music Video Revolution

Jay Ray: And all of that led to a booming industry where now people figured out that I can put my music videos on VHS and sell them to the public. And make money that way.

DJ Sir Daniel: out the middleman. That's exactly what she found. She figured out was I can cut out the middleman. Oh, you're going to ban me. You're not even going to play me late night on MTV. And at this time she's like, Oh, MTV. I thought we were cool. But even MTV had their standards, their FTC standards that they had to stand by and was like, we couldn't, we can't.

Girl, we can't do that. We love the video, but we can't show it.

[00:49:30] Ingrid Chavez: The Graffiti Bridge Connection

DJ Sir Daniel: But, um, a lot of people are asking who Ingrid Chavez is. So Ingrid Chavez is, um, was a one time Prince girlfriend. And, um, for context, she is the main character in Graffiti Bridge.

Jay Ray: is. That's where you know her

DJ Sir Daniel: if you've ever seen her, if you've ever seen Graffiti Bridge and, you know, the, the love come quick, love come in a hurry, you saw that Ingrid Chavez is the, the love interest in that movie.

But, um, Yeah, but again, she, she knows what she's doing.

[00:50:05] Madonna's Calculated Moves and Critics

DJ Sir Daniel: And I think that's what, that's what pissed off a lot of people. A lot of Madonna's biggest critics is they, is that because they know that she's so calculated and she knows how to play the game and, but it's like. Why are y'all mad? Because I figured out, I figured out how to work this.

Y'all are really mad about it. Whereas a lot of people, like you said, to her, to her credit, she came in, um, pretty fairly new to the game, young, younger, you have all these other established artists that she is surpassing and, but here she is just kind of breaking all kinds of records and the people don't understand that.

And again, that's something that you can't manufacture. This. That's downloaded into you from the source. You, that's just something that you get from outside and nobody else has been able to, um, replicate that.

[00:51:01] Madonna's Black Influence: The Erotica Era

DJ Sir Daniel: But I think, I think Jerry, we got to get to the black stuff. We got to get some Madonna and her black bag.

Jay Ray: can we, I'm a, I'm a bridge us to the black stuff. Can I bridge us to the black stuff real quick? Cause this is interesting. So we just talked about justify my love, which sends us kind of down a new path. Right in kind of the Madonna, um, universe, right? So right after, um, Justify My Love happens, the next album is about to be Erotica is about to come.

And Erotica is paired. This was next level. I've still never seen it. This was paired with the infamous Madonna sex book, which of course featured, Naomi Campbell was in that

DJ Sir Daniel: Mm

Jay Ray: Big Daddy Kane was in that book, and that was a huge controversial issue in Kane's career. Like, he still has never fully recovered from that.

DJ Sir Daniel: but you know, real quick, you know, he showed more, he was in play

Jay Ray: He was in Playgirl too. He was in it. He was having a whole

DJ Sir Daniel: he showed a whole lot more in playground than he did in, um, in the, uh, don't ask me how I know that and how he did in the sex book. But yeah, but that sex book was like, you, first of all, there were limited supplies in the stores.

There were people lined up around the corner. Of course it's this big ornate chrome

Jay Ray: a, yeah, it's like metal and it's like, and it's just sex, Madonna. You know, everybody's naked and they're doing all of these things. Right. And so I remember very vividly, Sir Daniel on some. Random psychologist on MTV because they were plotting because it, it got a huge backlash. So erotica didn't hit the way to other stuff had hit.

Right? So now people are plotting Madonna's demise. What do people do when you are having a demise? We'll get to that in about 2. 5 seconds. So they're plotting Madonna's demise because You know, she's she's unhappy and there's a sex Book and it's just I don't know what's going

DJ Sir Daniel: failed marriages.

Jay Ray: and da da da da do, right?

And let me tell y'all something erotica holds up to this day, but erotica is a great album. Go play it. If you haven't played it, it's hot. That said, what do you do?

DJ Sir Daniel: a gold tooth.

Jay Ray: She had the gold tooth. She had a gold tooth. Her name was Dita who was like, her name was Dita child. And she had, she was going to take you through things.

Her name was Dita. So like we said, sir, Daniel, what do you do when you need a rebirth? You go to the black people. You go to the blacks

DJ Sir Daniel: head on down to the black side of

Jay Ray: and Mr. Al Pete just hit the Instagram right on time because now Madonna has arrived at the blacks. She needs

DJ Sir Daniel: out with the black folks and Anita. Hit you all what's going down

Jay Ray: call a baby face.

DJ Sir Daniel: your uncle has, has brought Sharon around again because Sharon is having some hard times. So now she's back with your uncle and she needs something to eat. So she go. So your uncle's going to bring them to your mama house.

Cause your mama could throw down and cook because she needs some soul food. So this is what Madonna is doing.

[00:54:47] Bedtime Stories: Madonna's Black Era

DJ Sir Daniel: And so Madonna has headed down to Atlanta

Jay Ray: Baby, gallivanting.

DJ Sir Daniel: She's, um, working with, um, Soul to Soul themselves, Dave Hall and Nellie Hooper on the Bedtime Stories album.

Now, not for nothing, immaculate

Jay Ray: Woo, that album goes so hard. And this is a beautiful record. She's about to do, I think, is this the Evita? I think the Evita is happening. So Madonna's singing now.

DJ Sir Daniel: Yes.

Jay Ray: in the mix. Um, Bedtime Stories.

DJ Sir Daniel: because she's still, not only is, she's like, I've conquered music, but I want to be considered a real actress. And so Avita is on the table. And if you know anything about Avita, Avita is a, a major Broadway play. And, uh, Patty Lone, um, Avita is known as her role.

And Patti Lone is a Broadway beast. And so here comes Madonna. Who wants this movie moment of Evita, but at the same time, I'm hanging out with my, with my, with my home homeboys down in Atlanta, trying to make this bedtime stories album. And. Your girl, she's got your girl who she later signs to her label, but she's got your girl, J Ray, Michelle and Danielle Cello

Jay Ray: All over the record. So, Bedtime Stories is, I think, encapsulates Madonna's Black era really, really, her, her, her, her connection to Blackness really well. So, you have the balance of, The pop stuff and then you get her kind of dipping into the black pool. Okay, and um, of course One of my dad's favorite songs, uh, my dad loved madonna, by the way But one of his favorite songs is on this record is secret.

So now you get secret She goes to like harlem. So madonna's like doing a video in like harlem, you know, and she's got Yes

DJ Sir Daniel: coat, with the faux fur around with the, the heavy eye makeup and you know, she's got the little blonde pin curl. So she's blending, she's giving the, um, it's giving, um, Passing in Harlem in the early twenties. What's that movie with the, um, the, the black women that are, are passing.

Jay Ray: think it's in a call pass. Wasn't it call passing? No Oh, are you talking about, uh, Oh, are you talking about, um, Oh, it's going to come to me in a minute. It's going to come.

DJ Sir Daniel: what we're talking about, where these black women are experiencing living life in Harlem where they're very, very, very, very, very fair skin, but they're black, but their passing is white, but they're living in Harlem and it's a whole double life, but anyway, that's what Madonna's

Jay Ray: that is doing a reverse version of that. She's like

DJ Sir Daniel: but I have so off of this album, we also get human nature, which is Dallas Austin's joint, which is a banger. Again, your uncle, not only does your uncle take Sharon to your mama's house for soul food, but he takes Sharon to the Caribbean with him on a trip to Jamaica. And she

Jay Ray: She got, like,

DJ Sir Daniel: and she And she got cornrows while she's at the beach.

So Madonna is doing the cornrow thing in the video, which was, you know, which is fine. And the song, the song is dope. But Jerry, my question is I've thought about this. And the more I listened to, um, to, to human nature. Now I'm hearing T bars. And I'm thinking to myself, wait a minute, did T Boz, did T Boz sing on this, was she on the demo or because she's Madonna and Nicki and, um, the other Donna, the other, um, backup singer, the only ones credited on that, but that singing style is very T

Jay Ray: Oh, T Boz gotta be on that joint. Does anybody ever ask T Boz that? Like, is that you on a

DJ Sir Daniel: to know, are you, did you sing, did you sing the demo?

Because the, and I'm not sorry.

Jay Ray: sorry, I've died.

DJ Sir Daniel: human nature. If you tell me you can't see T Boz doing the slow bankhead bounce singing and I'm not sorry, it's human nature. And it's very, because she lived in the studio with Dallas Austin at that

Jay Ray: yeah, yeah, like, um, so I will say. Bad Time Stories, Banger, Human Nature, one of my favorite songs from that record. I will say my second favorite song is actually, uh, Madonna is like, she's gotta, she gotta do a new thing. So she's like, I need to do a Bjork thing. So Nellie Hooper comes along and is like, so Bjork writes Bad Time Stories.

And so that's my other favorite song from that record. is Madonna singing Bjork lyrics. Today is my last day that I'm using words. They've gone out, lost their meaning, don't function anymore. Classic Bjork. Great song. Love every moment of it.

DJ Sir Daniel: But we can't, but we gotta talk about, um, Take a bow, take a bow, take

Jay Ray: Babyface is

DJ Sir Daniel: has to be like one of Madonna's most gorgeous records. That album. I was so surprised that record did not get any awards. Like I could have sworn she got a Grammy or something, but no, that album did not. Um, Garner, any awards, but bedtime stories has to be not bedtime stories, but take a bow pen by baby face is probably the most, one of the most beautiful songs in Madonna's repertoire to this date.

And it's, um, it's just one of those songs that when he was, when he sang it on his, um, in the early days of the verses, um, during the pandemic.

Jay Ray: When he was in the like studio, like,

DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah, when he was in the studio and

Jay Ray: playing like an iPad, right?

DJ Sir Daniel: right in his bedroom, you know, people, a lot of people gagged. They were like, Oh, you wrote that? Yes.

Babyface wrote that. You could, it has

Jay Ray: babyface song. It has all the babyface

DJ Sir Daniel: markings of a Babyface song. Absolutely.

Jay Ray: He's on the backgrounds and everything. Yes,

DJ Sir Daniel: but, and she was so clever. She made the motif of the video of her being like, um, Spain and with a Spanish bullfighter,

Jay Ray: right?

DJ Sir Daniel: just, just saying, Hey directors, look at me, I look good as Evita.

So again, you know, not for one for sitting on her laurels and not going after, not going after what she wants, that's Madonna.

[01:01:34] Madonna's Hard Candy and Hip Hop Influence

DJ Sir Daniel: She was also auditioning for Evita in the music video for, Take a bow, but, um, but Jerry, you know, to me, her other black album was hard candy. Now she, she, granted, she went from R& B Madonna to Kabbalah, um, space cowboy, all the dance, Dance teacher,

Jay Ray: Confessions is my favorite mother my favorite modern Madonna record

DJ Sir Daniel: but then she, but in the mid 2000s, she was like, hold up,

Jay Ray: Hold up

DJ Sir Daniel: a little bit of this hip hop thing. Cause Madonna's what Madonna's knocking on 50 and guess where she pops up. One Oh six and park everybody.

Jay Ray: Y'all, look at Terrence and

DJ Sir Daniel: A Roxy.

Jay Ray: They,

DJ Sir Daniel: 2008.

Jay Ray: this is 2008.

DJ Sir Daniel: candy album.

Jay Ray: And, um, now I will say what's hilarious about this clip. So we have the clip playing for those of you that are listening. What's hilarious about this clip is. I didn't know that many white folks was at 106th and Park Tapings. I think they was there.

They told, they was like, Madonna's coming.

DJ Sir Daniel: Right? So we need,

Jay Ray: Look at Madonna. Hold on. Check, give, Madonna's serving, right? This, this gear, Madonna's in all black. She's very rich. She has these long, gold, chain y things, and it's a lot of them. Black, all bla Baby, these white boys is losing their ever loving minds. It's a lot going on, but Madonna looks amazing.

She looks very rich.

DJ Sir Daniel: Well, I mean, she, she deserves to look like that. Cause at this point she's been in the game for 20 plus years. So she, she looks rich. She's it's it's colored. It's it's coded is black coded Madonna, but it's still rich. But to me, the funniest part, like you said, Jay Ray, is that we watched one Oh six in part and we ain't.

Never seen this many white kids in the audience at one Oh six in part. And so we know that that was done on purpose. Stephen Hill was probably like, look, I want Madonna and people at MTV at Viacom were like, get some white kids in that audience. We want, you know, we still want her to appeal to the white kids.

And so they were like, fine, let's just. Funnel all of those TRL kids over here down to the 106 and Park Studios and put them in. But that was, that was a moment. Hard Candy was a moment. I think Hard Candy reintroduced Madonna to a whole nother generation. And As always, she aligned herself with the creme de la creme of the people that was popping and she aligned herself with Timbaland, Pharrell of nerd fame, uh, Danger, Danger and the Kludge, um, Justin Timberlake, and of course Kanye is on the album as well.

I, I enjoyed hard candy.

Jay Ray: huh. Now Spanish lesson is my bop. I love that joint.

DJ Sir Daniel: That. Uh. Uh. Uh. With very bad broken. Spanish spoken

Jay Ray: Right

DJ Sir Daniel: that very bad spoken, spoken

Jay Ray: Oh yeah. It would never fly today. It would never

DJ Sir Daniel: means I love you, but I'm sorry. Okay,

Jay Ray: You'd be like, does it? Madonna does it though. Um, yeah. Madonna . Um, she, she's a collector of cultures like Madonna. Definitely slip, would slip in to a culture, try it on for a season, an album, an album run essentially, and then by the end of that album run, she was slipping out into her whole other thing.

Cause then right after this, or was it right before? No, no, no. It was after music. I think where Madonna went political, that was like the American, the, she, she put on her soldier.

DJ Sir Daniel: her latte, I'm drinking the latte. I guess I'm out of it. And I know I'm satisfied. Yes. She went through all of that. She was, she became a bond, a bond, a bond woman by singing a theme song for die another day. So she did all of that stuff in between and then was like, you know what?

Let me do my Thanos thing, put on this glove and collect another infinity stone of blackness and put out hard candy.

Jay Ray: you know what? I think this brings up a question. Um, thank you, John, for saying this because I am curious today. I think. We would definitely label Madonna as like a culture vulture.

DJ Sir Daniel: For sure.

Jay Ray: And I'm wondering, I don't know. It's almost like performance art for Madonna. This was like, no. This is what I do, right? I'm doing a new thing.

This is the look. This is the energy. This is what the videos have to give. It's like a whole thing. Um, and Mark, I think leads right into the next big topic. So Mark is over on YouTube and he said, Gwen Stefani tried to take a page out of Madonna's book, but the Harajuku phase went right out the window when she met Blake Shelton.

DJ Sir Daniel: That's it. You know, so I think what Madonna would do, Madonna, again, the audacity, that's the, her biggest superpower. She would sit up there and be like, well, I helped create hip hop. So I'm right at home with hip hop, you know, that's the car. That's the kind of, that's the kind of chutzpah that Madonna had.

She would sit up there in your face and be like, Oh, but I was rolling with the b boys and b girls. So

Jay Ray: right? I break her. I

DJ Sir Daniel: about? I was breakdancing before breakdancing was, was popular. And You know, we will let that slide because she's just, I think because on the sheer fact that she's been around long enough, your uncle has been, has been bringing Sharon around to the house long enough that every now and now then Sharon will drop the N word and you kind of look at her like, what the hell, what did you say? And then you kind of let it slide because she's been around long enough, but you're like, well, wait a minute now,

Jay Ray: That

DJ Sir Daniel: a little too

Jay Ray: you could share Sharon. Now just eat the potato salad now.

DJ Sir Daniel: That's it. You're doing too much again, Sharon. But, um, yeah, but Madonna, like you said, has been able to, she takes cultures and puts them on like outfits and just on and off, on and off.

And which leads us to a lot of people don't take kindly to a lot of that stuff. And there has been If you're going to be as popular as Madonna, you can't have some beef. You're going to have some celebrity beef or whatever in the, in, in your journey. We already talked about Courtney, but Jerry there, I, at some point, I think Madonna, It could be asked if Madonna had an issue with black women because she, she didn't have any issue, you know, hanging around with black men

Jay Ray: At all?

DJ Sir Daniel: using black men as her, um, You know, as boy toys or her muses at the time, dating them, you know, having babies or all that kind of stuff.

Right. She didn't have a problem with that, but when it came to black women, it seemed like she would never be aligned with black women in the industry. There's that law. There's that rumor, but not a rumor. Patti LaBelle said it. Patti LaBelle said that she. Pushed her out of the way, stepped on her toe and never said sorry or anything.

She, she's always said that she's found Madonna rude and she was like, she's lucky she's talented or I forgot what the exact quote was, but she, you know, she's still made it, but she's always called her rude. But then there was always this issue between Madonna. And Janet Jackson, there was always this comparison and we, and it was so strange when we were working on this, thinking about this show, Jerry, we talked about how much Madonna was like so in love with Michael and Michael, she escorted Michael to awards and blah, blah, blah.

But when it came to his sister, we got bad blood.

Jay Ray: I really do think the issue that Madonna had was with other women in the same industry. I really do think it was just like I don't feature none of them other girls who's in the industry. Um, unless they're my, unless they're my sons and they admit that they're my sons, right? So a Brittany and a Christina is okay because they, they have admitted what I mean to them.

It's very Nikki esque in a lot of ways, I think.

DJ Sir Daniel: Oh,

Jay Ray: and I think Specifically talking about the Janet thing, what I found interesting, and there's still some, some, uh, breadcrumbs of this is when control came out, they were trying to put control in the lineage of like a Madonna.

DJ Sir Daniel: Mm hmm.

Jay Ray: I actually don't see control in that lineage.

I squarely see it in like black tradition, funk. That. Lineage. I don't, I just don't see it in, in a Madonna line, but people were trying to do that. Right. Cause I think it was, you know, Madonna was the biggest, you know, pop star at the time. And I think from the Madonna standpoint of it, it is. I don't see none of these other girls who's like in the game, you know what I'm saying?

And for better or for worse, um, but yeah, I always found the Janet comparison weird and like misplaced and it never made sense to me. I just didn't see control that way.

DJ Sir Daniel: you know, my favorite part of the, um, of the truth or dare documentary is where she's, she's in a, a clothing store and she's trying on this jacket that has a lot of apple applets and, you know, buttons that fold to the side. It looks very military and somebody, some voice off on the side says, Oh, That's very Rhythm Nation.

And

Jay Ray: But that's over it.

DJ Sir Daniel: and just stops in her tracks and was like And starts taking it off and was like, get rid of it. It was so pointed. Now the other thing that what made people draw comparisons is when you talk about the music, first of all, Madonna and Janet queen of remixes, right? We, if you love a, we love a Janet or a Madonna 12 inch, cause it's going to have, it's going to be chock full of remixes. One Shep Pettibone,

Jay Ray: baby. That baby will give you will recycle a beach

DJ Sir Daniel: a renowned Um, producer, uh, remixer took, did a remix of express yourself and which sounds very familiar to a Janet, Janet, Janet Jackson, remix of escapade.

Jay Ray: Mm-Hmm.

DJ Sir Daniel: There's escapade.

Jay Ray: it miss you much? It might be

DJ Sir Daniel: There's a miss you much. No, I think it might be escapade. Miss you much. And, um, all right, there's Chet Pettibone remixes of all of these songs.

And I guarantee you all my DJs out there know this. If you, you can play, express yourself and transition right into miss you much or whatever Chet Pettibone remix of any artists. And it sounds exactly the same.

Jay Ray: Oh, oh boy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, oh my God, y'all thank y'all. We are, what's we, we, come on. We still have a couple more things. We

DJ Sir Daniel: yeah, we, Oh, there's just so

Jay Ray: I know so much,

DJ Sir Daniel: It's so like,

Jay Ray: we need a part two, go ahead.

DJ Sir Daniel: we probably should do a part two. We might need to break this up into, into, um, two parts. But so like, so Madame Noir called out Madonna actually at one point back in 2022, because it was coming up on the anniversary of sex, the book.

And Madonna made an IG post. About, um, how she basically was saying that, uh, all these bitches is my sons. I basically cleared the path for all of you. I made sex, sex and sexuality popping. So all you girls are basically copying off of me, but madam Y, um, placed an article, like Madonna, you lost your damn mind.

There have been plenty of black women that came before you that did, that laid the groundwork for you, including Ma Rainey, um,

Jay Ray: Betty Davis, uh, Millie Jackson, Tina Turner, all of these girls. Madonna's in, she's walking like that path that she walked. Baby, these women was out there at a time when that was not popular. So yeah, that was wild. And I was like, Oh, you just like rich and talking now

DJ Sir Daniel: and talking. And so, but again, that's Sharon, you know, your

Jay Ray: Sharon.

DJ Sir Daniel: Your uncle likes her. You kind of still like her too. And she's been around long enough. He still won't marry her, but they got kids and all that other stuff. And she, you know, she's going to show up to all the barbecues and whatnot.

[01:15:41] Madonna's Legacy and Aging in the Industry

DJ Sir Daniel: But like, so, like I said, tomorrow at the time of this recording, the next day is going to be Madonna's birthday, her 66th birthday, and Madonna is not, um, she's not exempt from aging.

She's not exempt from, from her, her face changing and we,

Jay Ray: itself.

DJ Sir Daniel: yeah, we, that plastic surgery, some of them, some of those touch ups were a little jarring. They were a little jarring, but what is she to do? She still feels as though she is. Has a lot to say as an artist and feels like she can still appeal to multiple generations now, which she has been able to do to an extent, right?

What do you think?

Jay Ray: no, no, no, no. I absolutely agree. I here's what I wish. And this is for all, uh, entertainers. is I wish that us as fans will allow them to age, right? And so I wish that, but I also wish the entertainers themselves allowed themselves to age too. So there's two things that are coming up for me, which is, which is, uh, interesting late last year, there was that video.

It might've been this year. Cause time is weird concept now, uh, where kit and play we're doing the kit and play kickstep, and we talked about it on the show where I was like. I want them to not have to do that anymore. I want us to be okay without them having to do that anymore. It's okay. They don't have to.

They did it already. I've seen it. Have dancers be on stage and now they're going to do the kid and play kick step. Amen. It's all right. And I want us to be okay with letting them be okay with doing, with not doing. So what I'm liking, I, where do I, why do I say that? I, I like that Janet is showing us what that can look like on stage.

I think that's really impressive. And my hope is that Madonna, after this season, after the celebration tour season is done, that she takes a step back, realizes that her legacy is so vast and so big and girl, you can get up there and play a guitar, sing some songs, acoustic, and the kids are still going to show up and go up.

You can sing an acoustic holiday and we're going to be singing with you. It's okay. You don't got to do all of that foolishness. You know what I mean? So I think as an aging pop star, And no shade. I know that Madonna like a young man. I know she do. Get your thing girl. Get it. But it's also okay for you. I want us, I want her to be okay with aging.

You know what I'm saying? So,

DJ Sir Daniel: So being able to just. Not be in the spotlight, which I think I don't know to be honest. She has scaled it back and for her for her She scaled it back. She scaled it back quite a bit. The the last concert series was a success Again, she's able to align herself with Um, this time around she aligned herself with a lot of the, the, the, um, drag performers, right.

And that they were a main part of her show. Part of her actual show is Bob the drag queen, and who of course is black and wildly popular and knows how to, is a performer on his own and brings people to the, you know, brings people to the show. So she's still doing it. On a different scale, but, you know, you can't deny that she still got it.

Uh, you know, there was a lot when she fell off the stage and, you know, you kind of worry her for her like, Ooh, you know, you're in your sixties. Can

Jay Ray: Girl. It don't, it don't heal the same

DJ Sir Daniel: heal the same way after that. So, you know, we, we're still rooting for you. We like, you know, we like what you do. We still, you know, we still get good feelings and, and smile when we think about how we met you Madonna and, um, where you are now, um, you know, you have a beautiful Benetton family, um, you, you know, and you just continue to do your thing and we, you know, we love.

Your contributions to the culture. We just, you know, yeah, you, you, you do what you had to do. You, you, you one of the ones, you were definitely one of them, one of them ones as the kids like to say. And, um, yeah, I'm not mad at Madonna. I'm not mad at her at all.

Jay Ray: know if Madonna never hopped on stage Again, girl, what more is there to do? Like I don't You at this point you are performing because you want to perform, you know, and that's great Do it as long as you want child Diana Patti and Gladys that we've talked about still out here saying it doing the things You know

DJ Sir Daniel: their eighties. God

Jay Ray: in their 80s.

God bless them. Let's get Madonna to her 80s But we definitely wanted to spend this time Talking about Madonna kind of celebrating her her birthday is tomorrow and this was super fun I never get a chance to talk about Madonna this much.

[01:21:38] Celebrating Madonna's Impact on Pop Culture

DJ Sir Daniel: We don't, we don't. And you know, the Queue Points, this is the Queue Points way of celebrating Madonna. You know, sharing, you know, you get.

Jay Ray: You are a

DJ Sir Daniel: can, you get Sharon, you are right. You get the big piece of chicken. Cause it's your birthday. Um, but no, in all seriousness, I do want to highlight that Madonna has changed a lot of things in the industry, how things are done.

Her legacy of genre nonconformity is a thing, you know, if you're an artist and just, you can't be held to one genre, you have the ability to do that because. Madonna made it mainstream or wildly popular for you to do that. Um, when we look at how artists are marketed and their marketing strategies, all of that, you can thank Madonna, Louise Chacon for that, you know, the tours, um, the react, the way that they use social media.

Now, all of that started. Or do in part to truth or dare, blonde ambition, those kinds of things she made, she really stamped her mark on the industry. And of course we can't not talk about or mention her contributions to dance culture, you know, the remixes, the, um, the bringing of an underground culture, a ballroom culture to the.

You know, which is still thriving and, and bigger than ever today in 2024. So, you know, hats off to you, Madge. You have, you really, really put your foot down and left the print, left your imprint on this industry for

Jay Ray: Absolutely. Happy birthday, Madonna.

DJ Sir Daniel: thank you so much for hanging with us this long, because this has been quite an episode. Don't forget to check out our Pandora playlists. Tell them about it, Jerry.

Jay Ray: Yes. So over on Pandora y'all's, uh, search for Queue Points and you can, um, one follow us there. So many of our listeners and we thank y'all so much. Listen to Queue Points on Pandora. And one of the things that we're doing special over there is we will have curated playlists. That will include some mini souls, uh, that y'all can listen to that are specific to Pandora.

So go over there, sign up for us. Um, and if you go to qpnt. net forward slash Pandora, you can, um, easily find us. We got a, we got a link there for you. So that's awesome. Um, definitely, definitely stay connected to Queue Points. Thank you all so much. So many of y'all been checking in on Instagram. Uh, like we, we got, you know, hi from London.

Y'all checking in on YouTube, Facebook, Twitter. Thank you all. That is so important. Spread the word about the show. Share with your friends, family, colleagues. If you love Queue Points, chances are they will too. Visit our website at Queue Points. com. You can sign up for our newsletter. You can read our blog. You can also shop our store, get some dope merch.

Yeah. Over there at store dot Queue Points. com. We appreciate y'all. We love you.

DJ Sir Daniel: Absolutely. Listen, we want to come to London, Jerry and I are going to get to London at some point. So thank you for staying up till three, almost three o'clock in the morning to check out the show. We appreciate you, but listen, like I always say in this life, we have a choice. You can either pick the needle up or you can let the record play.

I am DJ sir, Daniel,

Jay Ray: My name is Jay Ray y'all

DJ Sir Daniel: and this has been Queue Points, dropping the needle on black music history. And remember you can dance for inspiration. All right. Peace.

Jay Ray: on.