Soul Train, Arsenio, and Showtime At the Apollo: How Black TV Revolutionized Music Culture

Greetings, and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast. I'm DJ

Sir Daniel. And my name is Jay Ray, y'all, sometimes known by my government

as Johnnie Ray Kornegay the third. And, Sir

Daniel, I were feeling nostalgic today. This is when

we get to talk about what we used to watch when we was young folk.

Absolutely. Because we, you know, during one of our conversations and we go

off on plenty of tangents, we started thinking, you know what?

TV shows dedicated to variety shows. Mhmm.

They're far and few in between today. But then we thought about

even deeper. There was a time when if you were a black artist, a

musician, there was not a lot of places for you to go and

be showcased. Yep. So if you're a black,

specifically around hip hop, when that came around, if you were a black

musician, where else could you go? What could you

be seen by the national audience? Well,

on this episode of Queue Points, we're going to discuss that. We're going

to talk about black artists and the national TV

experience and starting off in, like, the from the mid eighties

to the early nineties, black musicians had a clear

path. Well, prior to that, there was a clear path for them as far

as publicity was concerned. Of course, black

radio has always been in effect as the is the backbone,

and then a lot, of course, publications, black publications,

and then you would get artists featured in other publications,

national publications as well. Television television was

a different thing. Television had a lot of standards

Yes. Set by the f FCC. And then, of course, if we're talking

about pre civil

rights, movement era Oh, yeah. Throughout the civil rights

movement era, post Jim Crow, if you

were black and seen on television, I'm pretty

certain it was a a very, very controlled environment,

and especially if you were a performer. Yes. Oh, they weren't

good. You had to keep them hips still. Yes. There was no

gyrating of the hips. Everything probably had to be from the, from

the the waist up, and you had to be very careful about what you were

singing about and at how you looked on

television programs back then. But,

yeah. And so but as we evolved as artists,

especially coming along with the, advent of hip hop

Mhmm. You know, black people, wanted an

edgier look, edgier vibes and sounds,

but where were you going to go if you wanted to

get on television? Because television, Jay Ray, was

king. Yeah. There's no other

way around it. It was so

in order to get on national TV, there were really

only a few places that you can go unless you crossed over

and you would have to cross over to a

really major degree on the

pop charts to really kind of be taken seriously

in terms of white specific shows. Now what's interesting is we're

talking about national exposure. Right? Yes. There were

always regional shows like top of mind. I'm

thinking, you know, they're in New York. They had Soul, which was on

PBS. It was Ellis Haze Lip, which

did feature a lot of black artists in

the 19 seventies, but that was not a national show. Right?

No. It was an amazing and groundbreaking show, but you

kinda had to be in the region to know anything about it. But from

a national standpoint, especially in the 19 eighties

19 nineties, with the, with the rise of hip

hop, there was really just a few places that you can go

and even the black shows. So we're gonna talk

about a show in a minute. Even the black shows were resisted to hip hop

at the beginning. Like, it was not the black

shows, the the the major nationally

syndicated black show was resistant to hip

hop at the beginning because, you know,

they came along in those, you know, the late sixties, early

seventies, and it was just a different time. So, of course, we're

talking about one of the places that if you were a black artist and a

place that you can go was Soul Train. Right?

Yes. Soul Train started Soul Train was started out locally

as you were talking about in Chicago. It was a local show.

But then in, October October 2, 1971,

went national and became syndicated in

every household across the country. Let's just sit with that for a

moment and imagine being a young black

person and turning on the television and seeing

everybody looking like you, just

bopping and having a good time. And when I see those clips online, Jay

Ray, I have to real quick. When I see those clips online and say, I

just love how that everybody was bopping in in sync,

especially when, like, BT Express came on, do it to to your satisfied.

Everybody was like, you know, moving in syndication.

And it's it's those things that just stand out to me up and how

beautiful, Soul Train, looked

aesthetically. They had all the black commercials Yeah. Like, you

know, Afro Sheen. Afro Sheen. Why do we all think of Afro Sheen first?

It's always Afro Sheen, and it makes you look like Cleopatra. You know,

all the things that we love, that we needed in,

as consumers as well back in the day. But you're

right. You know, imagine coming up in the sixties seventies, you know, Don

Cornelius is very suited and strict. And here come

these hip hoppers. These these hippity hops with their

Hippity hoppers. Sneakers and chains.

And and, and god bless them, Don Cornelius

interviewing rappers was always the funniest thing. So

mister Cool Mo d with the very long

microphone, mister Cool Mo d. What does the Mo d

mean? You know, I'm I'm being facetious, but it was very

you could tell there was a a disconnect between Don Cornelius

and the uprising culture of hip hop. Yeah. But

we still had a place to go. Yes. It was still

an important place for someone on the come up to stop

at Soul Train because Soul Train Soul Train is

just a part of black culture, and you have to go there.

You have to be a part of that show. It's a part of your your

journey as an artist. The black artist is to be on Soul Train.

Mhmm. Yeah. Soul Train. I mean, Soul Train ran

for so long. It's crazy to thank y'all. Shamar Moore was a

host of Soul Train for, like, a long time. Shamar You're

trying to forget that, especially when he was dancing. He was

shabar Moore, who's always on your TV sets,

weekly, hostess Soul Train for a long time at the same time that

he was on, like, the young and the restless or one of the or the

bold and the beautiful, whatever. But it's where we had to

go. And, such an important and

iconic show. So we definitely wanted to lift that

up. But now so to that point. So Soul

Train for me, Sir Daniel, I'm curious for

you in New York and, in the Atlanta area. For me,

Soul Train came on on Saturdays, so I got to see

it after cartoons. So it would typically be, like,

whenever cartoons ended. So either 11 or 12

before the kung fu Saturday, we would get

an hour of Soul Train. When did Soul Train come on for you?

So, as I've told you all on this podcast before, you know, I grew up

7th day Adventist. Oh, that's right.

So I was always yanked to church on Saturday

morning, except for the the few times that

that I got to stay home or I played sick and got to stay

home, and I would have to sneak and

turn on the television to see the cartoons like you were just saying Mhmm.

And to catch Soul Train. But you're absolutely right. I think it was the same.

The the the timing was around the same. Okay. The format

came like, you came on around noon after the cartoons.

So yeah. Because well, we're in the tristate area. Yeah. So I don't

think it was that different from where you were in Pennsylvania.

But, yeah, that's around the same time that it came on. But,

man, stealing those moments to see Soul Train

and by that time to see whoever the guest host would be Mhmm.

Because like you said, you had your Shamar Moores. You had your Tashina Arnolds.

Yeah. And whoever was popping at the time would be a guest host

on Soul Train. So Soul Train did a great job of passing

down the baton when it came to having

hosts and people being a part of the show. And

Soul Train was a a midday type of thing. Right? Yes. It was a daytime

type of show, but nighttime television

was also popping. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Television was

you know, back in the day, you had your Dick Cavett. Of course, you had

Johnny Carson, who was the GOAT. Yes.

And what's the other the other comedian? The

Chin. Who? David Letterman? David let well, David Letterman

and the one he was, feuding with was going up against. Who

was he going up against? Uh-huh. We talked about Conan. Jay Leno.

Jay Leno. Jay Leno. Who took over actually, he took over The Tonight Show from,

Johnny Carson. Yeah. Exactly. So you know who else

who did a guest stint on The Carson Show?

Arsenio.

Man, you wanna talk about comic. You wanna talk about

the most important night

time show. I feel like in TV

history, there was nothing

like the Arsenio Hall show in the late eighties and the

early nineties, and shout out to our folks. They reminisce over

you. They do a great show about the history of the Arsenio Hall show. Go

check that out. But that show, Sir Daniel,

late night, that is where you wanted to be. That was the

coolest show on TV. That was the ticket.

I mean, Arsenio had it was Arsenio and he had

the posse. The posse? Were you David Owen?

And he had Arsenio became, he became

larger than life to us specifically because we saw that's

one of the first places that we saw hip hop Yes.

Being celebrated, not just, you know,

here's this group, they've got a hit on the charts,

such and such, you know, a rap group. Arsenio

knows of the culture, is of the culture, and would have them

on, and then would also talk to them, would have the artists speak to

them. After the show, they would have an interview session,

which a lot of artists didn't get. They just came and performed, and then that

was it. But on Arsenio, you got to sit on the couch with him.

You got to chop chop it up with him. You felt safe with him there.

I keep going back to this moment, in a tribe called Quest

History Mhmm. Where they went on the show and performed,

and, a audience member, some white dude, got up and was,

like, putting his thumbs down and booing them during their performance because

they were sampling that, this was when they would do a performing,

Can I Kick It? At the time, they were going through some litigation with Lou

Reed, who's the original song, it's called Walk on the Wild Side Mhmm.

That Can I Kick It samples? And, you know, some guy was in the audience

being vocal about and being disrespectful. Arsenio

stopped the music, called the man out and

and blessed him in front of everybody and was like, how dare you?

These are some kids, some talented kids. They've got a hit record

and we're gonna respect them. Yes. Arsenio had so

much respect from all of us at that time. He was respectful

of the he showed love to the east, and he showed love to the West

Coast because the show was, filmed right there on the West Coast. So a lot

of Cali rappers, got a lot of exposure on

Arsenio Hall show. Jerry, do you remember when Arsenio dropped his

own rap record? Oh, was that the chunky a?

Chunky. Wow. That just flew

back. The parody record. The parody

songs. What was the one? Dang. He chunky

but funky. I think that was the name of the album. Right?

Yeah. That Arsenio, yeah, he played in our face a little bit

with that one, but he's still he's still a legend and

still created a platform for

black musicianship. Yeah. In the late eighties

throughout the nineties, that show premiered January 3,

1989. Yeah. And it went on till 1994.

Yeah. Abruptly, of course, off the air, but shout out

to that was definitely a place from a national standpoint that you

could get some exposure. And this next show

that we wanted to talk about does not get brought up enough in these

conversations and it deserves to. For sure. Because

we owe Dee Barnes so much

for what she did for the culture, and

the fact that she gave us pump it up. So I remember being able to

check out pump it up, which is a national,

show. So we're talking about shows that were on network TV too. I wanna be

clear because some people might be like, but there was yo. Yo was on cable.

Yes. So back everybody didn't have luxury. Cable was a

luxury. Everybody didn't have cable. So if you needed

to, from a national standpoint, to get some exposure, you wanted to show that was

on network television. Right? So I got to the opportunity to

see Pump It Up. It was on Fox, at the time,

when I was young. And I remember being able to

stay up late. Now I did have access to cable,

but I stayed up late still on a Saturday night

specifically. I think it came on before

Saturday night live where I was or was like right while Saturday night

live was happening. But anyway, I got a chance to catch Pump It Up,

on Fox, and, I got a chance to see

artists because it was taped in LA. It was a very LA centric

show. I got to be introduced to artists out there that I had never been

introduced to before. I remember swaying King Tech

would play on there. So I got a chance to be introduced to artists like

that that I would never know. And King t Pump It

Up was a place where you could go and Dee would talk to you. She

was from hip hop. She would talk to you like hip hop and

really give you a solid interview, but also show music videos. So

that was a dope spot for me to be able to see artists.

Yeah. I specifically appreciate how

she did like, they did this kind of gorilla form

of recording where they would be out on location Yeah.

And would have the artists meet up in various locations.

Like, we ever since, Dave from De La Soul passed away, you know,

all the old clips kept resurfacing of them out in California

meeting with her and then being out in some fields somewhere, you

know, talking about the albums and whatnot. And so it just

it was a really a truly organic and

fun time. And like you said, we need to give

Dee Barnes her proppers big time for

doing that. You you mentioned Pump It Up came on late

on Saturday night. Mhmm. So in New York, Pump It Up came on after

SNL Mhmm. And right before

Showtime at the Apollo, which is the next syndicated

Yep. Platform that we're gonna talk about. September

12, 1987, Showtime at the Apollo goes

nationally syndicated, but still late at night,

but apparently, we were all staying up late so we could watch Showtime at the

Apollo. Yeah. So tell me the Apollo not only was a place

for national recording artists to go on, but so tell me the

Apollo was like the original American Idol. Yeah.

Oh, it really was because the Apollo Amateur night was

famous and replicated so

much even when you watch, even when you see the film dream girls or or

talk about, like, amateur night. We were really

all those years replicating what the Apollo Theater had been doing. So,

yeah, you're absolutely right. That was the original

black American Idol. You're right. And it had

numerous guest hosts. We've spoken about Malcolm Jamal Warner

being a guest host. Of course, famously Steve Harvey

with his, hot top fade hair piece that we all found out

later. That we all found out later. Sin our brother Sinbad.

Sinbad. Yes. Can't give he cannot glaze over

Sinbad. And you know what? You know who became iconic from this

show? Well, 2 people. Sandman.

Yes. Sandman was a whole icon.

And of course, the lovely Kiki Shepherd

who would slink onto the stage, who would rub the tree

stump and what she was famous for putting her hand over the

heads of the contestants on

Yes. Amateur night, and she was just she was just it. You know, the beautiful

smile, a dark skinned woman and that Absolutely. Being

an icon of late night television. And like we said,

so many stars came through that show, hip hop, r and b,

jazz. There's such a there's a story

attached to Showtime at the Apollo, which is a

bittersweet story because I remember seeing the

trajectory of this person on amateur night

Yeah. Go from a shy

contestant to a continuous

winner. Yeah. A lot of you may not know the name, but

you should know the name David Piston.

David Piston was a if I'm not mistaken, he's

from Ohio. So when the Midwest, I feel like I feel like it was

like Saint Louis, but somewhere in the Midwest. Saint Louis in the yeah. So when

he was a school teacher Mhmm. And he came out, and he

he liked to sing. Now David Peterson was a big guy.

Yep. Unassuming, you

could tell he was nervous, but he was shy. But when he opened up his

mouth, he sang that house down

to the point where he came back week after week Yep. And he was

packing everybody up. Each week, he packed everybody

up, and he went on to win several times as,

as a amateur contestant on Showtime at the Apollo.

So much to the point where he got a record deal. Yeah.

Yeah. He got a record deal and became an actual recording

artist. Mhmm. But, unfortunately,

we still don't there's a a gap in that history. A lot of people

don't remember that piece of the

David Piston story. Yeah.

Oh, David Piston is one of

those artists that also deserves to be

remembered to your point, Sir Daniel, about his trajectory

on his showtime at the Apollo.

In addition to the fact that, you know, he

was really trying to make it as a recording artist in the 19

eighties as a big black man in an industry

that wasn't particularly fond. You had to be a certain type of black man. If

you weren't Gerald Levert, like that type of black man, that type of big

black man, it was gonna be different for you. And David Piston wasn't that.

Right? But he got the opportunity to make 2

records, and unfortunately died,

got sick really early and then died really early.

But, is one of those artists that came

directly from that stage

into our homes as a recording

artist, and that is the power of what

it show time at the Apollo was able to do and that Apollo amateur

night stage. Absolutely. And that's why we have

to lift up these platforms, and you have

to remember them. You have to remember Soul Train. You

gotta give it up for Arsenio Hall. You have to

pay respect to to Dee Barnes and Pump It Up, and we

have to show love to Showtime at the Apollo because without a

lot of these shows, some of your favorite artists, iconic

artists, legendary status artists would not have been seen

on a nationally syndicated show. We do

before we wrap up, we do have to point out this one

sparkling moment in rap

music history. Yeah. February 14,

1981, Debbie Harry introduces the

musical guest of the night on Saturday night

live, and it is the funky

4 plus 1 more. 1st

rap group ever to be featured on a national

television platform. J Ray, talk about

it. Man. So I

didn't see this until much later.

You know, I didn't see it because as a as a kid, I was probably

like 4. But as I started getting

into, v h one actually showed me

this history. Because remember VH one would kind of do a year in

or they would do, like, these these wrap ups of what would happen. And I

remember seeing it on maybe an I love the eighties or something like that.

And I was floored to know that this happened,

and eventually Saturday night live released like a

DVD or some type of series where you could see,

like, old clips and things from the thing. So I was able to rent it

and see it. Man, these

were kids. Yep. In

this new form of music

birthed in New York, Debbie Harry was already a huge

fan. Right? So she was already white girl rapping in, like,

rapture. Right? Fat Fat Freddie. You know what I'm saying? So she was already

hip, and I'm sure she championed, like, no. They need to

be on the show. Yes. But the fact that you get to see these young

men and this young girl Who completely

steals the show. Who completely steals the show rapping on stage,

it reminded you how important representation

was. Absolutely. And so

that's what we do here on Q Points Podcast. Thank you so much for

going down this road of black music

history. J Ray, remind the people how they can get more of Q

Points Podcast in their life. Y'all,

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y'all. That's right. Like I always say, in this life, you have

a choice. You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record

play. I'm DJ Sir Daniel. My name is Jay Ray y'all. And

this has been Q Points podcast, dropping the needle on black

music history. We will see you on the next go round. Peace

y'all. Peace.