The Art and Business of Songwriting (Guest: Brian Patrick Davis)

Episode Transcript

*DISCLAIMER: Transcripts are created using AI, and may not accurately represent the content exactly as presented. Transcripts are provided as a courtesy to our listeners who require them.

[00:00:00] Disclaimer
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Jay Ray: Hey, Hey, y'all this episode of Queue Points may contain explicit language. Listener discretion is advised. 

[00:00:06] How to Support Queue Points
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Jay Ray: Hey, what's up good people. It's Jay Ray, the co host of Queue Points. And I wanted to come to you because there are two really important ways that you can support our show. One is by subscribing to it, wherever you listen to, or watch your podcast. Queue Points is pretty much everywhere. The other thing that you can do is you can visit us on Apple podcasts.

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We're always appreciative of you supporting Queue Points. We thank you so much for all that you've done for us so far and enjoy the show.

[00:00:57] Intro Theme (Music by Danya Vodovoz)
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[00:01:27] Welcome to Queue Points Podcast!
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DJ Sir Daniel: Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast. I am DJ Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government as Johnny Ray Cornegay, the third, what's happening, people,

DJ Sir Daniel: This is Queue Points podcast, dropping the needle on black music history. And guess what? J Ray?

Jay Ray: what?

[00:01:48] Surviving the AT&T and T-Mobile Outages
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DJ Sir Daniel: We've survived the AT& T blackout of 2020. 24. We survived. I'm still here. I don't know who was trying to get in contact with me earlier today. Listen, but I'm here. I'm still here in the words of Fantasia.

Jay Ray: So here's, what's interesting. I of course did not know that that happened today. There was apparently, uh, very recently to a T Mobile outage. It did not, it did not impact me. I did not know that it happened. Um, but apparently it did. So it leads me to wonder. What in the world is going on? Are the country people mad that Beyonce went to number one?

I don't know. Are they getting in the internet and stopping people? I don't know.

DJ Sir Daniel: I don't know. I obviously went straight to thinking about that Netflix movie with Mahershala Ali and Julia Roberts where all the phones went down and the next thing you know, nuclear bombs were being shot off. And so, We're not there. Thank God. So we're still here. We're, you know, no, we're not in black caves.

We're not separated by city and state any like in the movie, but we're here for Queue Points. We're here to hear a lively discussion about black music and black music history and that's what Jayray and I do best 

a lot of there's a lot of overlapping in the conversation that we were having and the things that we want to talk about tonight and I can't think of anybody better to discuss that with than, um, tonight's guests.

So Jerry, I'm going to let you do the honors and, um, I guess

[00:03:30] Introducing Special Guest: Brian Patrick Davis
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Jay Ray: Yeah, this is so exciting that we get to have this guest on the show. Uh, both DJ Sir Daniel and I are fans of the work that they do. Um, and so I'm going to read, uh, read his bio and then we'll bring them on and they were going to have, uh, some chat. So our guest tonight is a Brian Patrick Davis.

Brian Patrick Davis is a full time digital artist and admitted nerd. With over 10 years experience working as a creative force in the music industry. I'm a just add true and true. What's up? Born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia. Brian got an early leg up into the city's tight knit creative community. Brian has a large variety of interests ranging from film, photography, creative writing, and cooking.

He loves Starbucks, Thai food, karaoke, and is a proud studio rat, frequently writing, writing, writing. Recording and vocal producing with several producers and some of the industry's brightest songwriters as a digital artist and creative director. He is heavily inspired by and moved by music, the compositions and lyrics vividly paint pictures that he communicates visually with vibrant colors and provocative imagery with digital artwork and prints.

He expresses the clear. Correlation between aesthetic and sound. Davis lives in Atlanta, Georgia, where he continues to work and innovate with his team, the creative collective, et cetera, production group, though known for his infectious personality and fast talk. Brian has always been a little camera shy, but he here, right?

So joining, joining the ranks of amazing co hosts at the crew love show, ace, ace and HD has been welcomed. New and it has been a welcome new and exciting challenge and we are so excited Queue Points family to welcome Brian Patrick Davis to Queue Points. What's up?

Brian Patrick Davis: So good to see you guys. Yes,

DJ Sir Daniel: Brian, do you realize this almost been what, seven years since I made my first foray into podcasting with the shuffle and repeat podcast. And Brian was my very first guest, um, to talk about your book, your debut book at the time songs about boys.

Can you believe that much time has gone by?

Brian Patrick Davis: as I said earlier, I cannot believe that much time has passed. It does not feel like it's been seven years, but if you say a seven, then that's what we're going to go with.

Jay Ray: Listen, um, I think one of the things that we talked about before coming on the air is how beautiful it is that seven years later we get to come back and just have some dialogue with you about this moment that you're in. 

[00:06:10] Songwriting Insights with Brian Patrick Davis
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Jay Ray: And one of the first things that we want to do for is, is make sure that you get the opportunity to introduce yourself and your work to our folks.

So tell us about your background in music. Tell us about, you know, et cetera productions. Fill us in on all the things. Brian

Brian Patrick Davis: Okay. Okay. So, um, I have been, I'm born and raised in Atlanta. I know that's like a rarity, but I am born and raised in Atlanta. And, um, I've been around the music community for a really, really long time. Um, growing up, um, I was next door neighbors with, uh, my next door neighbor was best friends with like Jermaine Dupri and Da Brat.

So I knew them. When I was a kid, um, I used to, like, go over, um, Chris Smith's house from Criss Cross when I was younger. They lived around the corner from me, so I've just always been around the music community. Um, I started interning at LaFace Records when I was, like, maybe 14 years old. And, um, From there, I just, I was just always around music.

I was always around musicians. I knew a lot of recording artists. I knew a lot of people that were trying. recording artists. Um, and yeah, I was just super immersed in that culture and that community from a young age. Um, I went to Clark Atlanta University. And, um, as you all know, like, there's just a, uh, a wealth of, uh, musicianship and camaraderie at Clark Atlanta.

And, um, I met people that were also songwriters and vocal producers and producers and just trying to, like, you know, find their way in. And at the time, um, right for this pretty popular black entertainment. publication called Concrete Loop. Um, and I was able to foster a lot of relationships with, um, producers, songwriters, executives, artists, um, any, anybody that I could touch in the music industry, I was touching them.

A& R, just everybody. And it kind of, um, I was able to, um, form and build a lot of relationships through that. And that was kind of a way that I, um, moved into the creative sector of like, um, being a behind the scenes, creative in the music business when it came to, um, consulting, um, songwriting, um, doing creative direction, helping with photo shoots.

Um, anything that was behind the scenes, creative. I wanted to be a part of, I wanted to have my hands in it. And, um, 2008 ish, I guess, I kind of like fell in love with the process of songwriting and being in the studio and just like, um, that energy is something that I still love to this day. Like, I love being in the studio.

And so, um, Me and some, um, some classmates of mine, we formed this creative collective called Etc. Production Group, um, and we kind of like have coined ourselves as like a full service, um, artist development and production house. Um, and, um, really just, we've worked with a lot of people. I mean, we've worked with, um, Kelly Rowland, JoJo, Janet Jackson, Cassie, um, Janelle Monae, uh, we've worked with tons of people.

Um, but our favorite thing to do is kind of like build our own projects. And so, um, as of the year 2022, like We had started getting back to that, um, you know, building something from the ground up from conception to fruition. That's something that we really like. That's our, that's kind of like our motto.

Like we want to see things from conception to fruition. And so we've been really getting back to that. 

DJ Sir Daniel: the reason why listeners, why Brian, we asked Brian to be a part of this particular episode is because, um, you brought up Cassie, right. And, um, so Tiffany read. Not familiar is a music industry vet as a songwriter. She recently dropped a, uh, a very, a video that went viral where she was talking about songwriting and the disparities in the industry regarding songwriters and how they get credited or not get credited, um, as songwriters.

And so. With she said a lot and but I want to hear from you Brian like What do songwriters need to do to protect themselves because that seems to be an ongoing theme not just with Tiffany But it's it's been said so many times over and over again. A lot of our legends have experienced You know, where they don't get full credit for the, the work that they put into a project, but, and here it is coming up again as a songwriter, what do y'all, what do they need to do?

Because there's some songwriters listening right now to this podcast. What do you need to do to protect yourself?

Brian Patrick Davis: I will say this. I think that as a songwriter, one, one thing that is very important to know is first who you're writing with. Um, I think a lot of times people think that they need to protect themselves just from artists and labels, but it is important that you protect yourself with other songwriters as well.

Songwriting is one of those things. Okay, I like to, I like to describe it like this. And this is kind of like maybe an old, archaic way of looking at things, because, you know, like, contracts and the way that people negotiate their business and paperwork is a lot different than it was in the past. when I started out, but I like to think of songwriting as a song, as a pie.

And so a pie is a 100 Um, in, in, in the beginning, 50 of that pie automatically goes to the producer. A producer is going to take 50 of the pie off top. The other 50 is for the songwriters. So that is why it's important to, like I said, to know who you're writing with and to have split sheets and to have conversations before you guys start to work on something together, especially if you're working with somebody that you don't know, because a studio can be a very, it's a collaborative setting.

There can be people coming in and out. You might write with somebody that you've never met before. You might be in there with somebody that you've known your entire life. It just depends on who you're working with and work and what you're working on. And so you have this 50% You have to make sure it's fairly distributed between the people that worked on the song.

So obviously if it's just you, then you take the entire 50 percent of the song. If it's you and somebody else, Depending on what you wrote and what the other person wrote, you may have an agreement to split the 50 up 25, 25. But if that person feels like they wrote more than you, they have to agree. You guys have to agree upon the percentages in the split.

So if you, one thing that people don't know is that when an album comes out or an EP comes out or something gets released and the split sheets are not Um, agreed upon. Nobody gets paid. No one gets paid. So it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You know, like how many streams a song had. It doesn't, it doesn't matter.

If you guys don't agree upon the splits, no one gets paid. The producer's going to take their 50%. That's, that's already gone. But the songwriters are the people that suffer. 

​

[00:14:52] Navigating the Business of Songwriting[00:14:52] Transition
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Brian Patrick Davis: I think, The most important things are to always have an attorney, um, know who you're writing with, and then, um, don't, don't, songwriters at one point were so obsessed with publishing agreements, but You don't need a publishing agreement until you have a hit and you have like a catalog of hit songs.

It's okay to, um, to, to, to not have a publishing deal, um, and still be successful and still eat and still be able to shop your songs to, um, the appropriate parties. Um, so I think those are the kind of like most important things as it pertains to protecting yourself um, as a songwriter,

Jay Ray: Um, you know, you bring up something really important and thank you so much for kind of laying out the way that process often looks for folks. You know, I think one of the And I would love to have you speak to this because I think one of the things that, um, may, people may not be prepared for is, of course, being in that studio setting, right?

And not being familiar with how to have these conversations or just be one of those people like, I'm generally nervous about having these conversations. Um, I would like to ask this in two ways from your perspective. How did you learn how to do that? Right. And two, how can other people learn how to do it?

Because I imagine there are folks that are like, Oh, that makes me nervous. Right. I don't know, even though I wrote most of that song, I don't know how to say I wrote most of that song. Right. So I'm curious, how did you learn how to do it and how can other people practice that?

Brian Patrick Davis: So for me, um, I learned how to do it. I kind of had the luxury of being able to write with people I knew, um, and, and writing with people I knew was important because, um, we. always had an agreement amongst each other. Like, it doesn't matter who wrote what. If four of us are in the room, we're going to split it.

equally. If three of us are in the room, we're going to split it equally. And that was kind of like the luxury that I had. Um, nowadays, I think one of the easiest ways to have the conversation is to have a split sheet with you. Um, the studio that I record at primarily now, he, the engineer, he has split sheets inside the studio.

to say, Hey, look, this is what we did. This is what we, so that it's so that it's not a point of contention. When you walk in there, when you walk in there, you know that it's business. Everybody can sit down and say, I know what it is that I worked on, and we can be honest about what we worked on on this paper.

Um, we talked, we kind of spoke about this in the pre show, um, when, before we got on camera and, um, you guys were talking about how people use smartphones in the booth.

DJ Sir Daniel: Yes.

Brian Patrick Davis: I write everything down. I'm a very visual person. I like to keep pen on pad. And so that's also your proof. is to show like, hey, look, this is, this is what I contributed.

And, you know, I have proof that this is what I contributed. All of us should be writing in our notebooks. All of us should be, you know what I'm saying? Like there should be revised copies of what we've written. And so I would say, honestly, if, if you're afraid to have those conversations, just carry the split sheets on you when you go to the studio and, and let people know like, Hey, this is business.

So we can need to make an agreement before we, before we start, before the vibe starts, before the, before we get into, you know, like, you know. Before y'all start drinking and smoking, I don't drink or smoke, so I don't know. Before y'all start doing all of those things, y'all need to sit down and first just break the ice and say like, no, look, this is, this is, although this is a vibe, it's also a business, and let's make sure our business is handled before we move forward with anything else.

DJ Sir Daniel: And see, you read my mind because I was going to go there. I was like the studio, this is a creative environment, you know, and, and writers and musicians are, are, are creative people. And we like the vibe and when, and when that beat kicks in people, Oh, I got an idea and then automatically everybody just starts getting into this groove.

But it's like, how do you, that switching. That code switching, if you will, of going from artist to business person is what you're

Brian Patrick Davis: Also, also, Sir Daniel, another thing is like sometimes, um, I like to like, when I'm working with people, I like for us to separate.

Even if it's, even if it's in the corner, like I will kind of like go off in the corner and I'll just kind of be like, you know, and then we come together and see what, and see what ideas work, what ideas don't work, what can be tweaked. I think that because the best songwriting to me is collaborative. I can't say, well, I'm not going to say I can't stand, but I hate, uh, I wrote, I wrote recorded produced engine.

I, I, that's like, that's not fun to me. I understand how I understand that it's impressive, but it's also like, okay, it's very, it's a very Tyler Perry way to do things. And I just think, I just think that it, that the best music comes out of when it, when it's, uh, when it literally is like you bout you're able to bounce off of people.

I think that that's the best.

DJ Sir Daniel: There is a lot to be said for that, for, for those different energies to get together. And, um, and, and well, we, it's okay. So some questions have come up in the chat. Um, Is it like, do you hear, and this is, I guess like a, uh, what's in the sausage question when you're in the studio and you all get together, does it start with the instrumental before you go off writing?

Or is it a, um, is it a premise that somebody says, Hey, there needs to, we need to do a song about this.

Brian Patrick Davis: So,

DJ Sir Daniel: Jump off.

Brian Patrick Davis: so I think, I think everybody is different for me. Um, like I said, I carry a notebook with me everywhere I go. So sometimes if a line or a subject matter or a word comes to my mind, I will write it down. But those things are never finite. And a lot of those ideas I never even revisit. Um, I think for me, um, I, um, I like to hear something first.

And this is the same way that I am with music in general. If, if I'm just listening for pleasure, or if I'm writing, I like to hear the sound first. And then, if the sound makes me feel something, then I can move forward with it. And I can come up with ideas. If the song makes me feel like this, then that's what I'm going to write about.

Um, and I, and again, um, thankfully, the guys that I work with primarily, they work like that too. Um, a song will make them feel a way or invoke a certain type of emotion. And then, um, And then the concept will come. Um, and a lot of times what we like to do is I could, if I showed you my voice notes on my phone, like when I'm in the studio, um, I'll hear the beat and then I'll just like ask the engineer to play the whole beat.

And then I'll just start mumbling or like humming, um, humming melodies. And then we pick the melodies that we like the best or that are the most interesting. And then we write to those melodies. And then we figure out like, you know, is this, will this sound good as a hook? Is this, you know what I'm saying?

It just, it's, It's like putting together the pieces of a puzzle.

DJ Sir Daniel: Jerry, you know what this, and I love this because now we get to pick Brian's mind as a songwriter. And what bringing up for me is so Luther Vandross has been in the zeitgeist a lot because those first two debut albums are back, like they're. circulation and they're about to be reprinted and all of that.

And, and, um, a few minutes ago, you mentioned those types of songwriters who can, you know, they can do it all. And of course, Luther is Luther is one of one, right

[00:24:25] Brian Patrick Davis Shares His Songwriting Inspirations
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? But so I'm so interested, I'm so curious to know, like, as far as songwriters are concerned, and it doesn't matter the genre, like who's Brian Patrick Davis look up to?

Brian Patrick Davis: Um, I love Candice Nelson. Um, she is one of my favorite songwriters just from a, like a contemporary standpoint. She knows how to do a lot of different things. She has a lot, she has a lot of different bags. She can do like super R and B shit. She can do super duper pop shit.

And for anybody that's not familiar with Candace, um, she had a long heyday with Timbaland. She was a member of the clutch. Um, she wrote the way I are. Um, for Timbaland and Carrie. Um, she wrote Resentment for Beyoncé. Um, she's, she's just one of those people that can do so many different things. And I've heard so many different types of like, sounds and vocal things from her.

Like, she's one of my favorites. Um, Andre 3000 is one of my favorite songwriters. His storytelling is just, um, Is A1 to me. Um, um, I love Pharrell Williams. Um, like early-2000s Pharrell is like, I mean, I love a bridge. So anytime you get to like a chord change and a chord progression and you start doing some mo s**t like, that's like, I love that.

Um, 

Jay Ray: miss that? Oh my.

Brian Patrick Davis: yes. Yes. Um, as far as like current people, like people that are, that are like right now. Um, I love Victoria Monet's perspective. Um, I think that she has a very, um, unique, uh, niche sound that is kind of like, I don't know where it came from or why she decided to, to do that. But what she's doing is Super effective and I just love it so much.

Um, I love, oh gosh, there's so many people. Um, Teedra Moses is one of my favorite songwriters. Um, she just be, she just be talking that s**t Like I, I love when a woman can just talk and they talk like a n***a and they be like, you like, that's, that's my s**t I love that s**t When I can see women just.

Asserting themselves and being, I love that. Um, gosh, there's so many people I love. Um, there's this writer, his name is Attitude. Um, he used to be a rapper, but, um, he wrote a lot of like pop shit in the early 2000s. Like he was, um, instrumental on, um, Nelly Furtado's Loose album. He's like super dope to me.

Um, uh, Sean Garrett, um, not Sean, not to be. confused with Sean Garrett, the pen, although I do respect him. But I'm Sean Garrett. Uh, static

Jay Ray: Static major. 

Yeah. 

Brian Patrick Davis: in peace. Static major. Um, Shay Taylor. Um, Chanel from young money. I mean, there's just so many, there's so many people that I just love that I, that I think are, um, Candace Pele is another one.

Um, It's so many songwriters and I love

[00:27:52] The Magic of Traditional Song Structures
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.

Jay Ray: Um, you know what this is bringing up? I want to go back because you mentioned something really important. And Sir Daniel and I talk about this a lot as well. Of that, there's a magic in Just like a traditional song structure where you got like, like when that bridge come and that stuff switch up and you like, yes, ma'am, take us to where we need to go.

What will it take, Brian? I get, I I'm fine with the short intros now. I don't need 16 bars at the top. I'm fine with that. Get me into the song immediately, but don't, erase that bridge. I need it. You know what I'm saying? How do we get back to that in production, especially when we think of like contemporary R& B music?

What are your thoughts

[00:28:45] Challenges in Modern Music Production
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?

Brian Patrick Davis: what I'm, what I've noticed is a lot of time when artists go to the studio, what the, what the producers are playing for them are loops. They're not full. They're not full songs. They're not composed. And I think a lot of artists especially, and I don't think that's necessarily the producer's fault. I think a lot of times artists are listening to producer's ideas and the pro and the artist says, I like that.

Give me that. I, I want that. And so they end up a lot of times writing to a composition that's not completely built out yet. I think that's the first, I think that's the first problem

[00:29:28] The Impact of Streaming on Song Length and Production
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Brian Patrick Davis: . The second problem is is that listeners attention spans are so short now and people are people. are listening to songs, and I think this is a double edged sword too.

I think that it's part listener, sorry for that, it's part listener, and it's part, um, it's part artist's fault too because artists have gotten into their mind that they want to get their streaming numbers up. And so they keep songs short so that when you hear it, you want to hear it again because you're not finished with it.

And so you just play it over and over again.

DJ Sir Daniel: And so that's okay. So then that's building up streaming numbers, which everybody is obsessed with now, because that equates to dollars and which goes back to an off camera conversation, another off camera conversation we were having about

[00:30:28] The Importance of Musical Knowledge for Producers
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DJ Sir Daniel: . The musicianship of it all, or the lack of musicianship with, you know, the, a lot of producers are beat makers where there are some that are actual musicians.

And you mentioned something very important, Brian, about the fact that you, it's, yes, that's cool that you know how to program as cool that you know how to play, uh, you know, a chord on a keyboard and loop it, but don't you want to, at some point, Learn about core progressions. Learn about theory is the exact word that you, that we, that you mentioned off camera about theory and, and being able to, as a producer, musician, partner with an artist.

and getting that out of them. And so, yeah, and, but we're not getting that anymore. One, because of what you just said about the, the mindset now of we've got to get these listeners to, to, to keep these songs on repeat. So we got to make them as short as possible.

Brian Patrick Davis: Yes.

[00:31:35] Memory About DJ Premier Discussing Producing "Ain't No Other Man"
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Jay Ray: You know what that brings up? And this is interesting and interesting aside. Um, I will never forget DJ premier talking about when he worked with Christina Aguilera. So he was like, Christina was interested in working with me. He told the story. He was like, she was interested in working with me. So it was ain't no other man.

She was like, so I presented the song and she's she heard the song. She was like, yes. This, but I need a chord progression. Like you can't, he just gave her the beat because he's a hip hop producer. Right. He gave her to be, he was like, no, I need a transition. I need a chord progression here so that I can move the song.

And that was the first time, right. For him that he's like, Oh, I'm now learning how to do this thing that I never had to do in hip hop before. But he had an artist that said. Love that. Great. You got to take it further though. And here's what I need you to do. So that collaboration piece is so important.

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[00:34:03] The Tiffany Red Convo
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DJ Sir Daniel: So this conversation came up because it was sparked because of the video of, um, one Tiffany red, who is a, uh, a legendary songwriter in the industry and had brought up some. Some issues or some things that she has faced

Jay Ray: hmm.

DJ Sir Daniel: The industry lately regarding working with big names. And Jerry, this is not the first time I've heard this.

Like we heard, we've seen it on the, on the liner notes.

Jay Ray: Yeah.

DJ Sir Daniel: And so I think that's where a lot of questions are coming up and I'm hoping Brian, you can help shed some light on that.

But what is the real deal behind working with A big name artists like your Beyonce's because her name was brought up. Not his name was brought up and those artists taking writer's credits if, and they may or may not have like. You know, put in as the kids, like, like, you know, it's like we, you ain't put in on this, but they get credit for it.

So shed some light on that for us, because I believe a lot of people, that's a conversation that has been blowing up on social media about whether or not these artists that are on the forefront deserve this writer's credit. 

Brian Patrick Davis: I watched Tiffany's whole video and, um, There are a lot of, she said a lot of important things that, that should be looked at. Um, I think the problem comes when people try to make it seem like, yes, an artist may not have written a word, or they might not have, let's just, let's just say writing. An artist may not have written a word.

Um, but I'll use Beyonce as an example because that's, you know, that's who people want to talk about. Most people don't know. As I told you, Candace Nelson, she's a friend, a mentor to me. She wrote Resentment for Beyonce. A lot of people don't know. There are two recorded versions of Resentment that are out that you can find.

Um, recorded by other artists, two, two other artists that are well known, one being Jasmine Sullivan and one being Victoria Beckham.

Jay Ray: Mm hmm.

Brian Patrick Davis: Um, the song appeared on Victoria Beckham's album in the UK and it, um, was in, in Jasmine. It didn't appear on a song. I'm assuming that it was a part of the sessions from when she was working on her first album.

But if you listen to, um, the version of Resentment that Jasmine and Victoria Beckham recorded, they sound exactly the same. Not as far as vocals go, but just structurally, um, the lyrics are all the same. It ends all at the same place. Um, the last line of, of that song I think is, This sounds like a 50's record, but that's alright with me.

Whatever it is. It ends that way. Beyoncé's version of that song is significantly longer than what the original version of Resentment is. And I've heard Candice's demo of Resentment, and it's what Victoria Beckham and Jasmine's Sullivan's version sounds like when I talked to Candace about the session of resentment that happened with Beyonce She said that she was not there The producer was there but when she got the song back it was a completely different song background The arrangements, the writing at the end, um, I know she was attractive, but I was here first, all of that stuff, Beyonce added those things.

And so therefore she took, uh, she took some of the publishing on the song 

That's how it works. So if you leave space open on a record for somebody to put, to give their input and they do that and they send the song back to you and that's what it has on it and you agree to it, then they're going to get.

get credit. Um, anything in the arrangement, the, um, the way that the vocals are arranged, the way that the, um, the, the backgrounds come in, the stacks, if you, if you didn't have anything to do with that, that is a part of the production. That's a part of whether or not they get credit on, as a part of the, as a part of the production.

So those things are all a part of publishing. 

Now I'm not here to, to. To be the person to decide how much publishing there is such a thing as like throwing your weight around and taking too much publishing. But, you know, what you agree, what you agree upon is what you agree upon. And while I agree with what Tiffany was saying about, you know, like people feeling like they're going to miss out on opportunities by not agreeing to song splits.

Those are all real true concerns. Those are all real true things. But, um, I also think that a lot of the things that Tiffany was saying, too, were things that were good soundbites, and they don't necessarily give a holistic explanation of what publishing is, why a person would get publishing, and why people get the percentages of publishing that they might get.

And Jontay Austin did Who I Love as well, by the way. Recently, he, he made a, a, a comment, um, in regards to Tiffany's video basically saying, like, think about Publishing that you would get on a song that done by a colossal artist, even if you taking a smaller percentage of that publish, that publishing and the stage and the access that that song has and think about it in comparison to you getting a hundred hundred.

Yeah. Yeah. 80, 75 percent of a publishing from an artist that is much smaller that doesn't have the access as the larger brand artist. You still are going to probably make a little bit more residual income off of the person that's on the larger sound screen than you would getting a big percentage, a portion of the percentage of publishing of a smaller record.

Jay Ray: Brian, thank you so much for that really important perspective because, um, I love, what I love about this dialogue, and I'm so glad you agreed to even be here with us to kind of broach the subject, is there are so many layers that go into. How this process works, right? There is, it's not, it's not so easy to, it's not just one thing, right?

One of the things that, um, Kipper Jones did in his video as well. We'll make sure that we put that in the description too, is talked about kind of the structural issues. Issues in place that also make this problem or this particular thing show up too, right? So there's like structural things that show up as well.

So there are so many layers to it. And thank you for, um, your bravery and talking honestly about how this works. So we appreciate that too. Um, so you just dropped gems, right

[00:42:00] Insights into Songwriting and the Creative Process
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? If you held a Songwriters 101, Brian, what would be some jewels, one or two jewels, that you would want to make sure you drop on those songwriters at your Songwriters 101?

Brian Patrick Davis: um, 1 I would say put your phone down and write down everything. Not put your phone down because I understand you might need it to record some, a voice memo or an idea, but I would just say to write things down. I like to look at what the process was. I like to see things scratched out. I like to see where words were added.

I like to see the progression of what that looked like on paper. I I think that's really important. Um, 2 find people that you trust to collaborate with. 3 have a good face card. Um, I think that that's one of the most important things people don't realize that like people remember their first impressions of you. Um, and, um, you know, like credit and, you know, And all and clout and all of that stuff is, is one thing, but for people behind closed doors to say to each other, like, Oh, I really fuck with her or I really fuck with him is that that means so much more, especially when it's with your peers. Um, 4 have a good attorney 5 and just be, honestly, like, really y'all, like, just be open to like the process. I think so many people are like, um, they like to pigeonhole themselves because they're always like, Oh, I want to write a hit. I want to get a hit. I'm trying to get placements. I'm trying to get placements. But the thing about it is like, if you're just, if you just submit to the process and and lay the groundwork by just doing stuff that you love and that you trust something and that's honest to you, something is going to, to hit.

Jay Ray: Hmm.

Brian Patrick Davis: If you're not being honest with yourself, if you're not being true to, you know, like, because like songwriting is all about connecting. If, if you're, if you're not connected to it, if you're not connected to it, what makes you think that anybody else is going to be 

Jay Ray: Mm. 

Brian Patrick Davis: if it's being honest with like yourself or listening to what somebody else is going through and being able to like process that through yourself, how you react to it and how it connects to you, then what's the, what is the purpose in doing it?

If it's not true, if it's not true to you, then why would it be true to anybody else?

DJ Sir Daniel: And that that is the mark of a, a classic song is how many people can actually relate to it and actually sing it like it was. People want, people feel like you've written their life if you've written a really good song. So that's, that's a major, that's a major key. Um, Brian, and Wow, you really, thank you for that.

That was a serious gem that you dropped. 

[00:45:27] The Business Side of Music: Protecting Your Work
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Brian Patrick Davis: And, and, and print out those split sheets.

Jay Ray: Yes!

DJ Sir Daniel: Not those switch seats. It's business. It is a business, folk. And I think that, you know, a lot of what is going on and being said is that people are tired of being manipulated by this industry. There are a lot of people who are super talented, but they, they are make, trying to make sure that they can eat, that they have a place to sleep, you know, roof over their head.

And sometimes that does mean. Keeping a nine to five so that you can, you know, in order for you to make those dreams come true. But while you're doing that, this is also a business as Brian stated. And that has to be at the forefront, probably rule number one. And it's, it's been stated over and over again, kids like Q tip said it and the rules, like you've got to, to put your business first, 

Brian Patrick Davis: It's literally, it's literally called the music business and the music industry.

DJ Sir Daniel: curious

[00:46:34] Transition
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​

[00:46:44] Hope for the Future: A Union for Songwriters and Producers
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DJ Sir Daniel: What is your hope for the industry and like a fair practice act for creatives when it comes to music and musicians?

Brian Patrick Davis: I think that it is important that songwriters and producers too, and vocal producers, engineers, I think that there needs to be, um, a union,

Jay Ray: Mm

Brian Patrick Davis: um, that we need to unionize. And I think that we would be able to, I mean, because the thing is like the film industry and the music industry have so many parallels.

Streaming is king now in the film industry, which is something that I never thought would happen. But they've managed to come to an agreement about making sure people get residual pay from, from, from writing scripted series, films, you know, like, I think that that's, I think that that's important. And I think that, um, I think that also too, um, as creatives, not, not just, I mean, on the backend, you know, like producers, songwriters, we have to stop undercutting each other too.

Um, I think that that's, um, I was really being serious when I said that like, you know, songwriters, you gotta like know who's around you. You have to know, because, um, there are people that are trying to get to where you are, and you might not even feel like where you're at, where you're supposed to be yet.

And so I think if we, um, kind of like, if we, if we can form a union, um, It will help with us not having such a crab in a bucket mentality as well, like vying for the same things and feeling we like we have to do undercut Like underhanded things to get the same opportunities um I would like to see that.

And, um, sir, Daniel, I really loved what you said about like, um, you know, the industry kind of healing itself. And I think that that it's getting to that point. I think that, um, I think that, um, there are just a lot of things, positive things that I'm seeing change, at least from a face, a front facing, um, way, like, um, there's this resurgence of vinyl now, um, And I think there's kind of like a purist kind of movement happening where people are wanting music to be tangible again.

And I think that, um, I think that that's what's going to start changing the quality of, um, the business practices that happen behind the scenes as well.

Jay Ray: Mm hmm. Wow. Brian Patrick Davis. Oracle, songwriter, creative director, all of the above, podcaster. Um, thank you so much Fashion icon. Um, you know, we are so honored and grateful. You decided to spend your evening chatting with us here at Queue Points, lighten up the chat, um, and really sharing, um, your gift and your knowledge with our folks.

So thank you. Um, thank you. Thank you so much.

Brian Patrick Davis: thank you guys. And I apologize for my voice. I'm suffering from an upper respiratory infection. So I'm trying to get a wrangle on that. I've got my good drugs right here. Um, so I apologize. But thank you guys so much for having me. I appreciate it. Um, conversations like this are always so much. Not only are they fun, but they're just so important to have.

Um, and I just appreciate you guys and everything that you all do.

Jay Ray: Thank you. And for all of you that are watching, um, as we always say, stay connected to Queue Points. If you can hear our voices, if you can see our faces, subscribe, wherever you are. You can sign up for our newsletter at magazine. Queue Points. com. Um, and you can also shop our store, store. Queue Points. com, where we have some new merch and things out there for you.

Brian Patrick Davis: We love merch.

DJ Sir Daniel: absolutely. Well, listen, everything that needed to be said has been said tonight. This episode, this is one of them ones. Jay Ray. This is one of them ones. So, as I always say in this life, you have a choice. You can always, you can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play. I am DJ Sir Daniel,

Jay Ray: I am J Ray and

DJ Sir Daniel: special guest, Brian Patrick Davis. And this has been Queue Points, dropping the needle on black music history. We will see you on the next go round. Thank you so much.

[00:51:52] Closing Theme
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