Nicki Minaj, Whitney Houston & the Business of Trauma Commerce

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Peace.

And greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast.

I'm DJ Sir Daniel.

And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government

as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III.

What's happening, good people?

jay Ray, I've got a serious question.

Yes.

Every time I open up social media and I see who our modern-day stars

are, I just have to wonder, is it our fault that we've turned individuals like

Shamarco into modern-day celebrities?

I mean, come on.

Every time I see somebody, uh, you know, they're, like, on stage, they're

booked somewhere, I'm like, "What?

How did this happen?" Mm. It's gotta be our fault.

It's definitely our fault.

When you used the word star, in my head it was like, quote-unquote today.

Because here's the thing, so yes, it's definitely our fault that

we've made these folks famous.

Sir Daniel, I've been very clear that- Celebrity and stardom does

not mean the same thing that it used to mean when we were coming up.

Michael Jackson was a star.

Janet Jackson was a star.

Madonna was a star.

Prince was a star.

George Michael was a star.

Baby, you didn't know nothing about them people.

You just ain't know nothing about them people.

They get on, they do amazing work, and that's it.

So yeah, I feel like we have absolutely made these people who have no discernible

talent except being kind of interesting, but in a very plain you and me and

we know people like this kind of way.

And they, they might have a- they just got a little something, but we've

made them famous, and I don't get it.

Right.

Well, it's not even so much that they, they have a talent.

The reason why I think they've become so famous and they've gone

viral, which is a word that we love to throw around these days, is that

they've got some type of trauma-

Ooh

or something going on with them that they, that publicly we've

developed this, like, bloodlust for people who are, who have, uh, pub- publicly

airing out their traumas, who are comp- who are traumat- who are troubled for

whatever reason, who are struggling.

We have developed a bloodlust for it, and we are just hungry for it, and so that's

why we keep making these people famous.

Mm-hmm.

So you mentioned Michael.

Yes.

And it just makes me think, just like you were saying, artists used

to be … We, we called them shy.

Yes.

We called them artsy.

We called them withdrawn.

The whole time we didn't know that they were riddled with anxiety

and had their own resolved trauma.

And so it's like the

Go ahead.

No, no, no, but, but Michael, it's so interesting that you use Michael

as an example because for me, I think Michael Jackson is one of the earliest

moments where I saw someone using trauma to create a, a world around them, right?

So I remember when "Thriller" became, like, this big, big hit, right?

Mm-hmm.

And I remember kinda hearing my parents say this, but I also remember it

being just kind of, like, part of the conversation of, "You know, it is so good

that Michael Jackson is just being this big star 'cause you know he ain't had

no childhood. He's been working since he was a- Right … baby. And for him

to have this success is so amazing."

But they were saying it as, like, um, you know, him having this difficult

childhood, so- Mm-hmm … him having this success is, like, vindic- is, is

good for him because he's worked so hard.

Yeah, a- a- and I agree with you.

I also think that they, they leaned into that in the later years.

Oh, really in the later years, yes.

They leaned into it in the later years, you know, um, b-

but right up until the time before he passed away, you know all the videos

that have surfaced of him, "You know, I go through so much touring." "Touring

just takes everything out of me." And you know, it, and it w- Michael,

you can't say that, Michael.

But it's the truth.

It's the truth.

I, uh, I, my arm, my hip, it's just the truth.

Okay, fine.

But Michael, Michael, oh, okay.

Michael, I know, I understand.

Mm-hmm.

Michael's like, "Okay."

Okay, I'll, I'll say what you want me to say.

I love to tour.

And- And we

cackled.

And we,

and we cackled at that because it's like clearly that man was over it.

And granted, he was in his, he was knocking on 60.

Mm-hmm.

Oh.

He was knocking on 60 at that time.

I can't remember specifically.

But anyway, I, we say all that to say that still, even though Michael, you

know, gave us peeks, especially as he got older, into the, the trauma,

the suffering that he went through, especially when he was on trial.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, that, that definitely had to be used as a tactic

in order for p- for people's opinions to still be swayed in his favor, you

know, for better or for worse, you know?

And the outcomes, he was never actually convicted of anything, so.

Mm-hmm.

And that may have worked.

But where I'm just drawing a stark contrast, because there are other

artists like that, I'm just drawing a stark contrast of how the record

labels, they used to sell us perfection.

Oh, yeah.

don't you miss when artists and their eccentricity was hidden?

Yeah.

Like, I kinda miss it.

I kinda miss- Yeah … not knowing that, you know, um, people are sleeping in

hyperbaric chambers or- … you know, somebody's get- somebody's suffering some

serious addiction or, I kinda miss that.

Yeah.

Um, what I, I, I agree.

I think what it did for us was two things.

It, um, it made us focus on the music.

Yes.

I'm, I'm thinking, specifically thinking in the cases of musicians,

like the music would be the main thing that you would focus on unless they

became such a huge star that, like, other things just kinda creeped in.

But you're right.

I do, I do miss that.

That kind of, the, it's the mystery- The mystique … of it all.

Yeah.

It's the mystique.

It is, I get to pay attention to what this person is doing, and I think now,

um- perfect example of this, and this is outside of music, but we talked about

this as we were getting ready for this.

So Jonathan Majors is back- Hmm … apparently.

Jonathan Majors is back.

He's on his redemption tour,

yes.

He's on his redemption tour.

But here's the thing about Jonathan Majors' redemption tour.

So, uh, uh, watching him in the hospital, you know, he's

on The Sherri Shepherd Show.

And I'm like, "Okay, he gotta sell this magazine, Dreams.

Go sell the movie, Jonathan." Y'all, Jonathan Majors cried, like,

three times in this interview.

And I said, "So is it just gonna be crying in every interview and talking about

how thankful you are and all of the, and whatever?" And I'm like, "Oh, this is

the, this is the marketing plan." Mm-hmm.

You need to shed tears, and you need to be vulnerable, um,

in order to sell this film.

Um, we saw versions of that with Denzel, uh, Washington.

We saw versions of that with A$AP Ferg.

We saw… We're seeing it continuously.

W- women have been doing a version of this for a long time.

Oh, hands down.

Men, women,

you know.

I was just about to say- Hands down … like we- Yeah, women ha- have

been doing it, but not as much men.

Now they're like, "Okay, when you get on the show, you have to tell them

about this childhood trauma," right?

You should… Y- y- you bring it up.

And on one hand, I'm like, "Oh, I'm so happy we so free to tell these

stories." But on the other hand, I'm like, "This is a, this is a dupe

so that we can spend money on you."

You know, Mark, thank you, Mark, for reminding me of that,

that crash-out- Oh, yeah … that R. Kelly had with, um, Gayle King, and I

think that severely backfired on him.

And I think we were really supposed to get a, a, a really soft and

tender moment, but it w- it was very much, "Robert." "Robert, sit down.

Robert, you're getting too…

You, you invading my personal space.

Robert, sit down." And so that, that backfired on him.

But, um, it's so funny we're talking about this.

Over the weekend, I saw… I was watching the, um, that Tammy Faye

Bakker movie on HBO- … that came out.

And when I tell you Tammy Faye Bakker could've taught classes.

Like,

oh, she was so good at it.

And Jim u- Jim used to use her, J- Jim Bakker, her husband- Mm-hmm … when

they were in the, the midst of all their media turmoil and, and the scandals

broke, he, he put her on Front Street and turned on those tears, and had

that good old mascara running down her cheeks, and it, it worked for them.

It really did.

And, um, it's also funny that we were talking about

So everything is on Front Street now.

Mm-hmm.

I can, I think the most glaring example, or one of the first examples

I saw of the, the Chavon, um, curtains being pulled back, the se-

you know, the, the glossy, the gloss being removed was being Bobby Brown.

And we got to witness- Oh, Jesus

Whitney Houston being a little too regular.

You know- Full- A little too regular, and which, and-

… Jay Ray: regular Whitney

… Sir Daniel: very regular to the point it was, like, a

little, it was a little jarring.

Like, ooh, I didn't know, I didn't know… Listen, I didn't know if I wanted to know

that Whitney… Of course she passed gas.

Everybody passes gas.

But I didn't know if I wanted to know or hear Whitney Houston

passing gas on national television.

That was something I was not ready for.

I was not ready for her and Bobby to be talking dirty to each other and talking

about getting it on- Yeah … behind a tree and being worked over behind

the trees on their camping trip.

Yeah.

I don't know I was ready for that.

No.

But I think, and here's one, and here's one of my, um, theories.

I'm thinking that, this is just a theory, y'all.

Is it possible that with the rise of reality television coupled with social

media a few years down the line, is it possible that the recording

industry was like, "Hey, we gotta lean into publicizing everything"?

Because regular people were becoming superstars, were

becoming the new celebrities.

You know, regular people were going on these, these shows like

Flavor of Love and becoming iconic stars like, like Tiffany Pollard.

And so- We

love New York

… Sir Daniel: uh, we absolutely love New York.

She, like, she's given us so many iconic moments and lines.

But when you, when the recording industry is figuring out they're,

we have to compete with these kinds, with regular people now, I think, do

you think maybe they turned to, they said to the artist like, "Listen, you

gotta turn up the regular, the regular degular. We need you to be a little

more common out here in these streets."

You know, I think there's a y- I think there's a both/and

in this particular situation.

Mm-hmm.

I actually think,

I think what we could a- we could both agree on this, is that the music industry

doesn't really create anything new.

It just kinds of amplifies what the audi- what the, the,

the public is saying is cool.

You know what I'm saying?

Mm-hmm.

So it, now, there are some people that might have the sauce and it's like

they don't know that this is cool yet, but I know this is cool, so I'm gonna

make sure y'all know it's cool too.

But for the most part, they don't really create anything new.

They just kind of amplify what is new.

I think what the music industry was forced to do Is because they have diminishing

power- Mm-hmm … they are, artists have to come fully packaged already.

You have to already kinda have an audience.

You have to already kinda have a team.

You have to already kinda have a look, right?

And then, then they put whatever m- money they have behind you, right?

So I feel like they have had to adjust to whatever is happening.

I do feel like if there was enough power still The music industry would

exert it by creating the same sheen.

I feel like they would c- 'cause you see it in, in movies where Hollywood

still kind of operates like Hollywood.

You know what I mean?

Right.

You have, you have some of the things like that you have to do now,

like we just talked about with like Jonathan Majors and Denzel, et cetera.

But for the most part, you kinda get what a movie rollout is.

You kinda know they gotta go and do all of these things now.

Dumb actors sometimes get up there and they start saying stuff and

doing stuff that I'm sure the studios are like, "Yeah, see, no.

We don't want you to do that." But so to, to your, your question, I do think

that yes, in some cases, especially early on, the music industry is like

telling the artist, "You need to appeal, and what appeals now is regular."

But the moment you get to Rihanna, Beyoncé, Jay-Z, shut it all off.

But see, by the time they get there though, it's too late.

The horse is out the gate, you know?

I'm-

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't, I don't… I think, I think at that point, if, if an artist is

smart, if an artist is smart, they are planning for a long career.

So even in their being regular, they are like, "What does that mean? Because if

I do something crazy today, people are gonna be talking about it in 10 years,

whether it's an accident or on purpose."

Right.

So even if artists aren't thinking of that, listen to your uncles

DJ Sir Daniel and Jay Ray.

You need to be thinking about having a long career.

So if you wanna be a public figure in that way, you need to

be thinking about that stuff now.

So how do you feel?

I know whenever I see the, if I'm following a certain, a

particular celebrity, specifically a artist on, say, Instagram, and

I see that they've gone live-

I automatically start to shudder like, "Oh my God, what are they saying on

there?" Because I just think it's this whole, like you said, the industry has

said you have to lean into social media.

Mm-hmm.

And so it's like when this, the people who have, who are legitimate,

and I'm doing this in air quotes because Say what you want, their people today have

become celebrities in their own right.

So whether one is legitimate or the other is left up to the audience.

But people who we consider, um, mainstream celebrities have been forced,

Jay Ray, to use social media as part of their marketing, and sometimes it

just, just doesn't work in their favor.

Like, uh, are there any, like who do you feel like is like out of the

celebrities that you follow, and I'm pretty s- you don't follow, I'm pretty

certain you don't follow a whole lot.

I don't.

But is there anybody that just worries you when you see their- Oh … red circle

and they're going live 'cause it's like, oh man, what are they about to say now?

Um, I mean, these aren't people that I follow, but I will tell

you… So people that I worry about when I know that they're doing stuff

on, uh, on social media, Nicki Minaj.

Whenever I hear that Nicki Minaj is about to do something

on social media, I'm concerned.

Um, Summer Walker I feel like is unpredictable in that way.

She's another one that I'm always like, "I don't know. I don't, I don't, I don't

know." Um, uh, why are they all women?

Uh, m- women have been running the music game, that's why.

That's why.

Yeah.

Uh, Azealia Banks is another one.

Um- Hmm … on the male side, uh, Ye of course.

I don't follow Ye anymore.

Um-

He follows us.

He follows us.

It's like we can't, we can't shake him.

Can't shake Ye.

God bless.

Um, so yeah, that's for me.

What about for you?

Who, who's on your list of when they, when they know- Oh

they going live?

Well, I'll tell you this.

I'll tell you who my f- what my favorite crash out is, and crashing out according

to the, to the young people, it's like this new, new term that's being used.

Crashing out is when, uh, public figures or pe- regular people are,

have a severe reaction to whatever kind of stimulus is, uh, uh, uh, e-

external stimulus that is making, taking them out of their emotional security,

out of their emotional rationality.

It's just making them completely melt down.

We used to call it a meltdown.

Yes.

You know, when we saw Britney Spears acting out and hit you, you

know, s- um, swinging an umbrella at the paparazzi, they call it a meltdown now.

Yes.

The kids are calling it crashing out.

Yes.

And what the celebs today are doing is they're

crashing out on their Instagrams.

And you named this person, but one of my favorite crash

out, she is a crash out queen.

Every time I hear

Did you think I wasn't gonna l- hear what you were saying?

You think you gonna talk about my family?

About

my husband?

When you the one with the big foot, getting shot in your big foot.

You hopping on your big foot, ended on the good foot.

Yeah.

What you think going on over here?

I'm the MF-ing queen.

To freedom.

You know, every- the… She, Nicki Minaj is the crash out queen.

And I swear, that whole thing when Megan dropped that first single that, and,

and the Megan's Law verse went viral.

Mm-hmm.

And Nicki, she went on, she crashed out for three days

straight on that Instagram Live.

And it was a spectacle.

Like, we've seen her crash out before about Cardi B and she, she used to do

it on Queen Radio, and people kinda… That was like a controlled environment

'cause it was supposed to be radio.

Yeah.

And she was able to do all of that and, you know, she was screaming, "To

freedom," and, you know, she had guests.

It was marketable.

But now with the Instagram and those, those three-day lives where she's, you

don't see her but you hear her voice in the background, and she's blowing

all the smoke and she's doing this, and then her voice rises and she gets mad.

You know.

She starts talking about people getting shot and then Bigfoot and all.

You know, she goes on that, that was those tirades.

It's, I don't know, it's hard not to look at.

It, uh, it's hard to turn away and not look at 'em.

It's a

train, it's a train wreck.

You're like-

Oh-

… Jay Ray: I can't look

away from this … my

God.

And it's like the, the, it's like trauma commerce.

This is a n- this is a term that we've come up with.

W-

it's called trauma co- commerce.

Yes.

These people are using their traumas and their crash outs, as

the kids say, to sell us themselves, to make sure to remain relevant, and

to, and to hopefully put out new, um, to get pro- their projects recognized.

And to me it's like, uh, I don't know if I signed up for all of this.

So this is the thing, Sir Daniel.

That is the really annoying part about when these folks are appearing to be, um,

to have their moments or to crash out or to appear to be, like, doing something.

You're like, "You got a project coming, don't you? That's why you

having this conversation." Yeah.

There's no other reason for you to having this conversation.

Something's about to come out now.

What?

It's like that friend you haven't heard from in weeks.

A-

yes.

Yes.

Then all of a sudden, "Hey, Big Head."

What's up?

"What

you doing?" Yeah.

What do you want?

Outta nowhere, here you come calling.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's what they're doing to us.

You want something, and what you want is us to reach in

our pockets and to buy whatever the thing is you're about to sell us.

And it absolutely is trauma commerce, and we have bought

into it hook, line, and sinker.

Like, and, and I mean, honest, I mean we're talking about this, right?

But this is of course not a new thing.

You know what I'm saying?

No.

Like, people have figured out over time that, you know that old adage

that, what do they talk about with musicians, like, you know, people

are more famous when they die.

So it's like- Yeah … that's a very traumatic thing, and then it's just

like, but somebody's gonna make a boatload of money, right, off of

this, this very traumatic experience.

Poor Tina, we did our Tina Turner show a couple of years ago.

Mm. Yeah.

That poor woman And, and, and, and was so like I would've been, right?

Really naive about if I tell this story, people will not wanna talk

about it anymore because I've told the story, now we can move

on and I can go and have a career.

That was the opposite of what happened.

Literally, she told the story.

Yes, it put her into the spotlight and was able to propel her to becoming one

of the biggest stars in the world, but they kept talking about the one thing

she didn't wanna talk about anymore.

Trauma

commerce.

Imagine you're… Trauma commerce.

Imagine you're sitting at an award show just having the time of your life.

You just won an award, and then some presenter or some comedian

gets on stage and makes a joke, and your, your life, your trauma

is the punchline everywhere you go.

Forget that for…

Suppose it's a rapper, and a rapper- Yeah … singing a song, and the, the

punchline in they rhyme is, "Yeah, like when Ike hit Tina," or, you know-

Yes

… Sir Daniel: going through that time and time again.

Which happened so many times.

That, that's gotta be… I could only imagine the, the pain that

she went through knowing that I've done all of this work, and this

is what my legacy is gonna be?

This is what y'all are gonna p- y'all are gonna latch onto and create as my legacy?

So it's, the trauma commerce goes both ways, basically.

So Sir Daniel, I, I, I'm gonna big up, I do think what you

said earlier, we love We love to latch on, because you know what?

We hurt, right?

As people.

Yes.

We go through things as people, right?

So we latch on, we do this even in life, to other people that we think are going

through things, that we might be able to even help through the things that,

right, that they're going through.

Mm-hmm.

The problem with that is we develop these, uh, what do they call them?

Um, uh, parasocial relationships with these- Yes

celebrities 'cause we don't know them.

And listen, some of them are really going through stuff, but we don't know

them, but meanwhile they just trying to sell th- they got a project to sell.

So whatever they gotta do to sell us the project, cool.

But I do really think we as people are just naturally

drawn to, like, damaged folks.

It does a thing for us.

I, I'm sure there's a psychological reason.

If Dr. Ed Garnes is still watching, I'm sure Dr. Ed Garnes-

Right … can tell us what this is.

But- I was just about to say that.

Yeah.

But I really, at my old age, am trying to remove that from my

experience of a person's art.

Yeah.

I just wanna experience your art.

And it's not separating art fr- 'cause there are some people that you just

can't separate the art from the artist.

We've talked about two of them very- Mm-hmm … three of them-

Ad nauseam

… Jay Ray: a lot, ad nauseam, very recently, so I'm not gonna re-mention them.

But for the rest of y'all, I just wanna hear your stuff.

I just wanna hear

your stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, shout out to Dr. Ed Garnes 'cause I, I was just thinking the same thing.

I was like, is… There has to be… What is it that we're doing to ourselves

if we continue to allow them to dump on us, to trauma- Hmm … dump on us?

Like, what are, what are those ramifications?

'Cause it has to be.

Like last, like we said, this is a reciprocal relationship here.

Mm-hmm.

Like, they're doing it because they get the views,

and clearly we keep coming back to it for some reason or another.

But, um, I don't know.

Would you Here's the … Okay, here's a question for you, Jay Ray.

Okay.

Would you have a different opinion if the music was actually good?

That's

a hard

question.

Like if you

Okay.

Like if the stuff that was coming out today was like slap after

slap and we're like, "Ooh."

Okay.

Well, all right.

In some cases, the music slapping does do a thing.

Mm. Like the music slapping can … It doesn't erase the issue, right?

But it could make me listen harder.

You know what I mean?

Listen a little more.

Yes.

So, um, one of those people who shall not be named just released a project.

What, what's hilarious about that person just releasing a project is, is it was

hot like last week, and no one's talking about it this week, but that's whatever.

I don't care how good that crap … Ooh, let me not call-

Oh … that man's stuff crap.

Oh.

I don't care how good the music is in this case.

Too far gone.

I just don't care.

Mm. But there are plenty of people … Listen, as problematic as she is, if

Azealia Banks dropped a banger, and she has the potential to do so, I

would be like, "That's a bop, Azealia."

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what about you?

Would you … If the music was good, would you have a different opinion?

Y- yes.

Only because there's, like, people that I think they just show up to be seen,

and we're not getting anything from them.

That's all.

Mm-hmm.

There's an artist, uh, 'cause I don't wanna pile up on anybody, and

I don't wanna be accused of, you know, not being supportive of people

and their, um, and their artistry.

But there's an artist that's come out, and I, I do… When I tell you I

don't get the hype around this artist-

Mm-mm

… Sir Daniel: I do not get the hype.

We're gonna have to have a, a behind the scenes.

We need to have another closed Queue Points Live where we get

together with all of our folks and

have some discussions.

And, and be… And just, and just lay it out on the line and be, and be free.

We

need to lay it all out on the line.

But yeah, I, if… See, th- that's the whole thing now.

If- There's a lot of baiting, there's a lot of crashing out, there's a lot

of trauma baiting, a lot of all the things that we've been talking about

during this episode that the artists, the labels, the publicists are all

behind in trying to push something.

But if the product, at the end of the day, if the product is not good, there's

just no shelf life for any of that stuff.

There's nothing- Nope … that they're going to drop Um, there's nothing that

they're going to drop that's going to have any long-lasting appeal past

a week from the time that happens.

And that's what's happening with a lot of this, of the music that's coming out now.

But it's just, we just want y'all to be aware- Yes … of what's happening.

And, and to protect yourselves.

Like I have- Mm-hmm … uh, I try and block as many accounts as I can, but

some people that I follow still re- um, retweet and repost stuff all the time

that I don't wanna see, but it's just a ongoing thing that we have to do.

Just be careful with your peace and what you're- Mm … and, and what

you're letting in and what you're, um, digesting in this, this media

world, the music and everything.

As much as we love it, I don't know, it's just not what it used to be.

So, uh- Mm. Mm-hmm … please, if you can hear our voices, if

you can see us, subscribe wherever you are and share the show with

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It helps to keep the lights on in Queue Points land.

We appreciate y'all.

We love y'all.

Absolutely.

And what do I say every week?

In this life, you have a choice.

You can either pick up the needle, or you can let the record play.

I'm DJ Sir Daniel.

My name is Jay Ray, y'all.

Peace.

And this is Queue Points podcast, dropping the

needle on Black music history.

We will see you on the next go around.

Yes.

Rock a bye baby, in