2 Live Crew: Pioneers of Miami Bass and Free Speech

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​[00:00:00]

Jay Ray: What's up, y'all? This episode of Queue Points discusses sexually explicit song lyrics in detail. It is intended for mature audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

Hook

Sir Daniel: who would think that Bruce Springsteen would allow 2 Live Crew to sample his "Born in the U.S.A."

record to create, "

Jay Ray: Banned in the USA"?

Intro Theme

Intro & The Debut Album

Sir Daniel: Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast. I am DJ Sir Daniel

Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray, and Sir Daniel, um, I'm checking out your shirt. We gonna talk about a Luther on this shirt, or this show. Not that Luther, but a really important [00:01:00] Luther who was part of a really important crew that we just gotta talk about during our summer of sex

Sir Daniel: We are discussing the forefathers of, uh, the new, at that time, a new sexual revolution in hip hop music. We're talking about July 25th, 1986. That was 40 years ago that the 2 Live Crew released their s- debut studio album, The 2 Live Crew Is What We Are. And Jay Ray, that album is important in the sense that it was like the Florida cousin to Soul Sonic Force in the sense that it featured, it fused Miami ba and we're gonna talk about, um, ba culture and car culture in a little bit.

It fused electro funk and, and of course it infused like traditional rap and hip hop. [00:02:00] But, um, some standout cuts, Jay Ray, on that album, like there's some serious cla**ics on there like Get It Girl, Get, Get, Get, Get, Get It Girl. Like, if you... We, I, I'm excited. We gonna, and then you'll find out why. And then I think the, the biggest cla**ic for them was Throw That D

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel: Throw That D is, is a...

You know Throw That D because it was sampled by Will.i.am. Well, not sampled. He used the lyrics. It was interpolated on Fergie's Fergalicious album because it starts off, "Now listen up, y'all, 'cause this is it. Forget that old dance and throw that mmm." Yes. So we're gonna be bleeping ourselves a lot on this episode, too, because it's the summer of sex, Jay Ray, and listen, the, the, the lyrics got a little bit more explicit.

The beats got a little more heavier. Um, they became bouncier. Um, there [00:03:00] was some, of course there was some resistance in New York and to, to hip hop traditionalists, but this group grew and literally changed the face of, of rap music and actually exposed the rest of the world to a whole new culture because Miami is a microcosm of a

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel: um, I also wanna shout out DJ Mr. Mixx, and we'll get to the rest of the crew members because he's one of the... Re- remember, Jay Ray, back in the day, DJs would get a feature on the album. Like, they would have an opportunity, a whole track just to do their thing, and I will say that DJ Mr. Mixx is probably one of the most underrated DJs in hip hop history when it comes to his turntablism.

That man was sick with it, is [00:04:00] sick with it when it comes to the, uh, cutting and scratching, uh, featured on a rap record. But, uh, let's get into the who makes up the 2 Live Crew, Jay Ray. Who is a- who are the actual members of 2 Live Crew?

Jay Ray: Yeah, so

Who Is 2 Live Crew?

Jay Ray: 2 Live Crew, uh, started, uh, with Fresh Kid Ice and Mr. Mixx. Those two guys had been working together, and there's a little bit of history of how that came to be. But, um, later on, uh, Brother Marquis, uh, came into the fold, as well as one Luther Campbell, who we were- we knew as Luke Skyywalker at the

Sir Daniel: time.

Jay Ray: And, uh, so they became kind of a four-man lineup. So for their first album you'll see all the members, all four members on the cover. And there's a lot of things, um, that are unique about the release of that record too. So one, for me personally, Sir Daniel, um, I was living up here in Chester, PA.

Regional Music & How They Got Known

Jay Ray: [00:05:00] There was no 2 Live Crew playing up here at the time. So the... Uh, uh, contextualizing for folks that at that time music was still very regional, right? So we've

talked about radio a lot on this show. So radio stations played what people were listening to in that area, right? And that music from Miami hadn't made it up here, right?

So if you weren't living down there, you didn't hear it. So I didn't hear the 2 Live Crew until a couple of years later, and we'll talk about kinda why that happened. But What's unique about that record is they could not get signed. So uniquely, the reason why 2 Live Crew is in our Summer of Sex, and Sir Daniel, you set this up, is, you know, they really are purveyors of this kind of new sexual revolution, in particular from a men's perspective, which has a unique sp- u- unique side to [00:06:00] that. But because of what they were doing and how they were doing it and what they were saying, it was, they couldn't get signed to, like, a, a, a

label. Yeah, they couldn't get signed at all. So what Luke did is he started his own label, right? And, and called it Luke Skyywalker Records, and they began to release under their own imprint.

So they were releasing independently and selling those records locally and regionally on their own. So that made this group really unique. Um, but yeah, I didn't end up hearing them until they went national a couple of years later with Move Somethin'. Um, and that was '88. That was actually my, I've talked about this on the show, my pl- where I fell in love with hip hop was in 1988 and, like, all of the stuff that came out, and 2 Live Crew was one of those groups. And I was listening to them, hearing Soulsonic Force,

but also hearing this, this 808 under [00:07:00] all of that that sounded, like, different than what was happening in the North. So it was very distinguishable

Sir Daniel: Absolutely. Oh man, there's so much to unpack here. So going back to the original lineup, um, of 2 Live Crew, Christopher Wong Won, AKA Fresh, Fresh Kid Ice, clearly the only Asian member of the 2 Live Crew, which of course he stood out like a sore thumb. But for the record, Jay Ray, I think it's possibly one of the first and one of the first Asian,

Jay Ray: Yeah

Sir Daniel: rappers ever in a major rap group signed to a label, the whole nine.

So I, like you, I had never... So this is '86. Never heard of 2 Live Crew until, 2 Live Crew until '88, like you, and that was only because of Ralph McDaniels and Video Music Box is when I also saw the Move Something, um, video, but that came, that's on their second album.

So on this first album, [00:08:00] you have, like I said, we have Throw That D, which is a, a, an instant cla**ic in Florida and regionally in those places. And, um, there is so much to be said about the, the beats, the, the BPMs. That's another thing. It w- it was a faster BPM, higher. They're rapping a lot faster. They are more explicit.

The way I like to explain 2 Live Crew, if I want to explain 2 Live Crew to, um, to a youngin', to somebody, a baby right now, I would, mm, they probably wouldn't even get this reference. But for those of us Gen Xers, 2 Live Crew is the amalgamation of Every single boy that watched a Porky's movie and g- that watched Porky's movies, Revenge of the Nerds, 2 Live Crew, their album was like an [00:09:00] amalgamation of that.

It was like if, if you put a, if you mixed all of that together with teen angst, um, toxic masculinity back in the eight- 'cause this is the '80s, so we talking about toxic masculinity and a lot of, um, s- uh, sexual repression that is now being fought because you've got, um, you've got the adult, um, the adult movies industry on the rise, and you've got the magazines and everything.

So all of these things, 2 Live Crew is like your teenage, um, brother's hormones on steroids. And because even on the record, he's-- they, they execute, they use, um, samples from Rudy Ray Moore albums, like a lot of Dolemite records that were very sexually explicit, um, rhymes, 'cause Dolemite was a

Jay Ray: A

Sir Daniel: for all intents and pur- purposes.

And they would get on there, they would use those samples to [00:10:00] just heighten the sexuality of it all and to heighten the pimpness of it all, because that's what they were do- they were young men exercising their l- horny demons on this record. And the rest of the worl- the rest of the world would slowly pick up on it, and that would become how become, 2 Live Crew becomes an instant cla**ic specifically in young, ala- among young men.

Jay Ray: So a couple of things Uh,

2 Live Crew in the Tradition of Black Sexuality in Music

Jay Ray: there is a tendency for folks to act like groups like 2 Live Crew just kind of sprouted out of nowhere, right? And what you just indicated and illustrated, Sir Daniel, is that in the fabulousness of Black culture, there have always been precursors to things, right? Sexually explicit music, comedy, film is nothing new for Black folks.

We have [00:11:00] always been on the vanguard. Literally, Little Richard wrote the words, "Tutti frutti, good booty," and they told him, "No, you can't say that, sir. You have to change that," right? So that's in the 1950s. There was stuff happening in the, it, before then, right?

As, as early as recorded music. 2 Live Crew comes from that entire tradition, right? So I wanna acknowledge that. Like, 2 Live Crew was not out of nowhere. This group sat in a tradition. And then, too, and I love that you mention this, Sir Daniel, 2 Live Crew built their following in teen clubs in Miami. And we've talked about on this show, kids, you may not know this today.

They might have teen clubs today. I'm not, I haven't been a teenager in a very long time, so I don't know. But, but we as young folks, we had nights where we could go to clubs, and they were teen clubs. And in teen clubs in Miami, they became a formidable presence. [00:12:00] Now, but I think it's important that we acknowledge that this group was always in a push-pull with, uh, law enforcement at the

Sir Daniel: Oh, yes.

Jay Ray: because because we have a lot of things going on in hip-hop at the time. So what people have to remember is hip-hop wasn't always the culture. Hip-hop was heavily policed f- in those early years. We talked about in our very first episode how literally venues banned hip-hop. Like, you couldn't rap in venues at the time, uh, because of fears of violence and all of these other things.

Some of them founded, uh, rooted in reality, but some of them rooted in just fear of Black, uh, teens and Black young people. But because of that, 2 Live Crew were always in kind of this push-pull relationship because [00:13:00] of the lyrics, because of how hype. I- listen, I only know this because of research. I wasn't there. But apparently, they was driving these kids completely crazy with their performances. And yeah. And you know, the, the authorities were, were alerted to what they were creating amongst their audiences

Sir Daniel: I think it has to be So

Miami Bass, Car Culture & The Florida Scene

Sir Daniel: I wanna set the stage because at, at a very important age, I left New York City to relocate to St. Petersburg, Florida. And I've mentioned that before on this show how much of a culture shock it was to me because it felt, and this is no shade to Florida, but it felt like I had gone back [00:14:00] a couple years in time when we got down there because you know, brothers and sisters were still...

The, the Jheri curl was still some- a thing. You know, um, the gold, gold teeth, go- everything that we know about Miami now, about Florida, they... It's still true to this day. They, they don't mind a gold grill. Um, now it's wigs, but back then it was Jheri curls. The hair has completely changed. That's changed a bit.

But you know, you got... This is a coastal city, so you've got all the influences of the Caribbean, of, um, of, uh, uh, you've got Spanish culture, Hispanic culture. Um, then you've also got, it's the '80s, so baby, you on the coast so you know the drugs are rolling

Jay Ray: are rolling in. Mm-hmm

Sir Daniel: So that, so you got a, a huge drug dealer/um, [00:15:00] drug user pop- co- population that has grown.

And so these... So what do you have when you get young people that are, that have money and like to have a good time and that are flashy? They start, they start spending money on things that are, that are affordable, but they take them and they zhuzh them up. They, they crank it up another level and make it theirs by slapping rims on the cars.

I'm talking about you could take a, uh, I, I would see... You could take up a beat up old Chevy, a Chevy Impala, any- a Buick, any kind of box car back then 'cause this is the '80s, and they would gut out the back, put these huge 808 speakers in the back, put some rims on the car. Sometimes they would put bigger car, put bigger wheels on the cars, and what you have now is a rolling earache because we...

Jay Ray: A rolling earache. I

[00:16:00] love that

Sir Daniel: me tell you something. You could... It would be nothing for us to be

Jay Ray: Just be

Sir Daniel: in our cla**es and some of the, and one of the boys, somebody would be driving by and you would hear that boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Just rattling. And it, that was part of the culture. The kids loved it.

The teachers would just roll their eyes and be like, "Oh, that's just some so-and-so pulling up in the parking lot." Jay Ray, I rode in a car like that I, and it was with a... And here's the funny thing, it was with a bunch of white kids. I will never, ever forget that. And, and you know, kids, teenagers, so you, you humping down the street with all of this noise in the back, playing, um, playing a, a, a 2 Live Crew or a L'Trimm, any of these huge records from back in the '80s that had a significant 808 ba kick. Just to bring attention to yourself, just to show that you're cool, and to have a good time.

I, I'm not gonna lie, I [00:17:00] laughed the whole way

Jay Ray: Yeah.

Sir Daniel: home because it was just that invigorating and the ch- literally the beat is bumping through your chest. And I have to give a shout-out to the Jam Pony Express movement of Florida because I, when I moved there, I became aware of this mixtape collective.

And baby, you talking about a chokehold. Those tapes were circulating. Like how we talk about, um, the mixtape culture in New York, they had the mixtape culture on lock Those ch- those tapes were circulating. They were so popular. The Jam Pony Express DJs, if they were at a party, the parties would be packed out.

I mean, all of that added to this culture that was bubbling in Florida that carved out their own niche of hip hop music. And little did they know the rest of the world was still kind of like, "Eh, that we don't like that. We don't care about that." [00:18:00] But little did they know a few years later

Jay Ray: It's

gonna take over

Sir Daniel: actually be take over and be leading the country in what hip hop would sound like and what it means to party, Jay Ray.

What it means to party and have a good time.

​

Transition

Giving Uncle Luke His Credit

Sir Daniel: To Luther Campbell's credit, Luther changed all of that. Luther brought a strip club culture. The dancers that you mentioned, they started doing... The reason why the shows be- became under so much surveillance is because of the dancers would get a little explicit on stage, which would make the kids want to come out and see the shows even more, which draw the at- drew the attention of the local police, the Broward County Police.

And they were like, they were the first, I guess, Southern hip hop police faction because they would surveil 2 Live Crew for years [00:19:00] after that until they started, um, creating record store stings, and we'll talk about that some more.

Jay Ray: Absolutely, and I feel like this is a good place to kind of transition into this interesting era. I, I often, um, as, as I was getting ready for this show, uh, Biggie was ringing through my head when he rapped Mo Money Mo Problems.

And I think this is really important culturally, um, for, for folks to remember. There are often times when we are clamoring for kind of more, more attention, more money, more eyes on the thing that we're doing, right? And that, and that's great, but here's what happens, right? It also makes you an easier target,

and I absolutely see 2 Live Crew as being like poster children for that taken to, like, the hundredth power. So as we've talked about, Sir Daniel, both you and I, uh, [00:20:00] uh, came to know 2 Live Crew, uh, through Move Somethin', right? Um, so

this

Sir Daniel: a re- I love that record, by

Jay Ray: it's a great record. So

if y'all don't know that record, it's a great record. If y'all don't know it, definitely go check it out. Um, but I was super-duper, duper, duper young, so I didn't know about the explicit stuff until, like, later.

You know what I'm saying? Until, like, you know, the team, the, you know, some other boy in the neighborhood would, like, play the record because they had it because I couldn't get it, right? But anyway,

Going National with Me So Horny & As Nasty As They Wanna Be

Jay Ray: 2 Live Crew got huge. So they get ready for their third album. Um, Move Somethin' had become a hit, so they have some momentum now.

So what rap groups do when you have momentum is you gotta do a thing. They release, and this is crazy that this played on the radio, 'cause they would not do it [00:21:00] today, but they release Me So Horny as a single. It's the first single from their third album, As Nasty As They Wanna Be. Nationally, this record goes gangbusters

Sir Daniel: Huge

Jay Ray: We are being now introduced to a new sound, or what's new for a lot of people outside of Miami, right? Because now this is not just a regional record, this is now a national hit record that is going international. And because of that, the album gets released, and those same police, right? So, you know, there's already eyes on them locally. Now this becomes a statewide problem where the authorities decide in [00:22:00] Florida that we are going to deem this record obscene

Sir Daniel: Hmm

Jay Ray: and we want it pulled off the shelves. And

The First Amendment Fight

Jay Ray: this begins to set off a firestorm of conversations about the First Amendment

and what it means. And so at the, the, the foundation of how hip-hop was able to move forward as hip-hop moved forward is 2 Live Crew, and largely Luke, who becomes 'Cause he was the business of the g- he was not only the business of the group, he becomes the face of the

group.

Sir Daniel: of it. Yep

Jay Ray: And he was really champion- championing them as, "No, this is art. This is First Amendment. You can't do this."

Right? And they even had, um, I forgot about this. They even had, uh, Dr. Henry [00:23:00] Louis Gates testify on their behalf, uh, for this federal trial that the, the, um, lyrics that they were using were in fact, uh, part of Black cultural tradition, right?

So Skip Gates, uh, was part of this whole conversation, right? But they truly did become the poster childs for, uh, free speech in the United States and what that would look like going forward

Transition

​

Sir Daniel: And you just said something. I wanna stay here really quick for just a quick second. So

On Luke Campbell and Call & Response as Black Cultural Tradition

Sir Daniel: Luther Campbell, Luke Skyywalker, Uncle Luke, whatever you wanna call him, not an MC, and not an MC's MC by any means whatsoever. But when I tell you [00:24:00] Luther Campbell is, uh, the p- is a purveyor and a A keeper of the lost art of call and response.

Jay Ray: Yes

Sir Daniel: His superpower is the call and response record. If we go back to the, to their debut, um, Tula Crew Is What We Are. One of the s- one of the records on that album is just the, the poetic and oh-so-aptly named We Want Some P**sy.

Jay Ray: Poetic

Sir Daniel: it's so poetic and just so, you know, you know, you think, uh, uh, plainly stated.

And when you listen to the record, it is just a call and response record where Luther just adeptly has this way of doing call and response records. Like every... And if you think about it, in the trajectory, even after the Tula Crew dissolved and he became his own [00:25:00] brand and was putting out records, if you think about Luke's biggest records, it's all a bunch of call and response.

And to Henry Louis Gates' point, call and response is a full Black African diasporadic tradition. Call and response, uh, is just a part of our culture. It happens at rap shows. It happens in church. You know, God is good.

Jay Ray: All the time?

Sir Daniel: And all the time.

Jay Ray: God is good

Sir Daniel: That's call and response, y'all, right there. We have been doing it for centuries.

So I said all that to say that regardless of what we think of, I know we don't think of, uh, Uncle Luke as a rappity rapper. He's d- he's not, he's not, not on anybody's top lyricist list or anything like that. But his claim to fame, aside from the business acumen and, um, and just being able to ride out this part of history and becoming the face of [00:26:00] freedom of speech for musicians, he's a master of call and response.

Argue with your mammy. I, you know, he- that's what Uncle Luke, to me, um, is best known for when it comes to the music side. And, you know, it's so funny, you were talk- they, back to the hip-hop police, they would surveil these record stores.

Jay Ray: Oh yeah, they literally arrested record store owners.

Sir Daniel: And Jay Ray,

Policing Black Bodies & Record Store Arrests

Sir Daniel: white supremacy is, is all over this because, again, they are policing Black bodies. Because if you think about it, Jay Ray, one of the first things that they did when they got ahold of the, uh, um, "As Nasty As They Wanna Be" record album is that they covered up the bodies of those Black women that are on the f- the front of that album.

I mean, the album is cheeks.

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm,

Sir Daniel: The, you'll be real, it's Black women with very voluptuous bodies and, and cheeks. Almost said the A word.

Jay Ray: With the guys, with the

[00:27:00] guys just... kind of down in between their legs. Yes.

Sir Daniel: And so they covered that up. Again, controlling Black bodies and then slapping a black bar across their, um, their, um, posteriors, and then slapping the, uh, warning label on the album.

And now you're controlling our bodies from us going into a record store and purchasing something that we want with our own money. So now you're controlling our bodies, and you're controlling them by arresting them at these shows, and these brothers are getting arrested

Jay Ray: at

Sir Daniel: for performing at shows. So you have NWA on the West Coast getting arrested for performing "F the Police," and now you have in Florida and other parts of the country 2 Live Crew doing the same, putting their bodies on the line for s- free, for free speech

Jay Ray: You know, okay, so this is bringing up a question. Um, I'm curious where you are with this. Um, I wanna give a couple of [00:28:00] quotes, uh, from, from things that came up. Uh, one, one to the arrest.

Uh, Luke, um, is quoted, um, as saying, "Oh, we knew we were going to get arrested. We were under attack because it, it was hip-hop."

And y'all, at the time, this was very real. And their defense attorney, when they... So basically what happened, by the way, 'cause I don't know that, uh, the, everybody will know this. So that federal judge in Florida decided to deem, uh, As Nasty As I Wanna Be obscene, which meant that people couldn't s- that people couldn't sell it, right? Instead of 2 Live Crew folding, they decided to fight it,

and that's where they decided to, to mount a defense and, and decided to, to fight this charge that this is not obscene, this is art. This is First Amendment, right? They ended up winning that, and they ended up being [00:29:00] acquitted of those charges because this group had, this, this album had been deemed obscene.

This group was under attack, and they ended up getting acquitted, um, after they decided to mount this defense after this federal judge had deemed this album obscene. But their defense attorney at the time is quoted as saying, "It's not just language, it's music. This is a form of art, and so it's protected."

Uh, their defense attorney's name was Bruce, uh, Rogow. Um, I,

Is Hip Hop in a Better Place Today?

Jay Ray: I have a question, Sir Daniel. When you think about where we are in this moment, and how- Where are we from your perspective in terms of, uh, this topic? Do you feel like, uh, uh, we are in a [00:30:00] better place today, um, or do- are there things that are happening in the music that need more regulation?

I'm curious to know

Sir Daniel: Hmm. So I think yes to all of it. Yes and... See, when it comes to making progress, sometimes people are always gonna take things to the extreme.

Jay Ray: Yeah

Sir Daniel: And so you have the, you have them, the 2 Live Crew, who starts getting, who starts rallying support from un- unlikely

Jay Ray: Unlikely people. writing

Sir Daniel: who would, who would think that Bruce Springsteen would allow 2 Live Crew to sample his "Born in the U.S.A."

record to create,

Jay Ray: Banned in the USA"?

Sir Daniel: You know, and other musicians started, like rock musicians started rallying behind them like, "No, [00:31:00] this could affect us in the long run as well," because Tipper Gore was on one. Tipper Gore was, was, um, and all the people

Jay Ray: Was it C. Delores Tucker and all

them girls?

Sir Daniel: of America because we don't want this filth in- um, influencing our children, and they were kinda right.

But, but, um, yeah, so I think when you get progress, sometimes things are gonna be taken to extreme, and I think in life what happens is that we are always striving for some type of balance. And what we've noticed in this world that we always, we always tend to get out of balance. We always tend to tip once, t- one way or another, and something has to happen in order to kind of force the ball back in the middle so that we get some type of equilibrium, we get some type of balance within the world.

And right [00:32:00] now we are definitely leaning towards things that are totally extreme. I don't think I don't know that because we are the new parents, the new lawmakers, we're the new grandparents, we are the, we are the, the, the adults of society. I don't think you don't hear as much noise about it because we are the hip-hop generation, and now we are the adults, as the kids like to say.

We are, we are the adults running things. So things don't typically rattle us like they, it rattled our baby boomer parents. However, we are still aware that some, some of that stuff y'all, y'all doing too much.

Jay Ray: Y'all, yeah

Sir Daniel: and so I think we're in a point now where we're trying to, to reel it back like, "Oh, oh, oh, okay.

A- a- all right, you know, I, I'm, I'm with y'all shaking a and throwing a and having fun, but all that other stuff, [00:33:00] eh, let's pull it back. You know, all that sex trafficking and the, the, the, the, uh, drugging of unwilling participants, all of that stuff,

Jay Ray: too far

Sir Daniel: bring it back. It's, yeah, it's w- gone way too far

Jay Ray: Yeah, um, I am Really happy that 2 Live Crew fought for what they fought for, because I really do think that, um, hip-hop benefited from, uh, uh, them having this fight. And overall, the music industry, like the music industry really does owe 2 Live Crew a debt of gratitude for deciding to fight this, because it did make room for, um, expression to happen without all of that, without, uh, uh, law enforcement scrutiny in a, in a, in a lot of [00:34:00] ways, right?

So I think that's a plus. To that point, though, I do wonder... I think it's the balance thing that you mentioned. Honestly, I think you nailed it with I feel things do feel a lot out of balance now, and it's like... And not only out of balance, I feel like there are lessons we grew up with that we were listening to in 2 Live Crew stuff, but we knew that you couldn't just, like, go into the world and do that because that's not the way you behaved in the

world. That's not how this works. You know what I'm saying? And I do think, like, th- that lesson is the thing that is most... Those lessons are the things that is most mens- men- missing. We talk a lot on this show, or have talked a lot about how we learned about consent by being in, like, teen club environments. You know what I'm saying?

Like, there were lessons [00:35:00] in learning how to behave, uh, within society that you learn by being amongst your peers, and also, but also people telling you stuff. So I agree. I feel like it is a both/and. I'm, I'm, I'm happy that this thing happened, but I also think that things are out of whack. So perfect example. Right now we are in this amazing moment in time where anyone can pretty much go on the internet and listen to anything,

Sir Daniel: Right

Jay Ray: mostly without guardrails, right? Unless you have on your phone that you are a underage, right? And, and you have to do, and child, these kids are smart enough to know how to override all of that stuff, right?

They know how to do VPNs and all of that. You know what I mean?

Sir Daniel: Like two-phase authentica- authentification? What is that?

Jay Ray: Got

you. [00:36:00] So, right. So we're in this phase where you could just kinda go and listen to anything, and, and I will tell you when hip-hop got more explicit, I had a very specific example of when I got reeled back in by the record store owner. There was a record store, um, here in Chester, and I wish I remembered its name, but, um, this is when N.W.A.'s second album came out, Efil4zaggin, which was the, the apex of this.

This was like this on steroids, but more from the violence side of things. So you had a sex and a violence. I wanted a copy because everybody wanted a copy. It was the hottest thing going at the time in 1991, right? And, uh, my dad was going to buy me a record. Now, he don't know this record. This is the record I wanted though, right? [00:37:00] And it's not obvious what the songs are because even the title is spelled backwards on the record. So you're like, "I don't know what this is."

Sir Daniel: Zagnewa?

Jay Ray: ra-ra-right. So we go to buy it, and the record store owner was like, "This is for him?"

Sir Daniel: Oh, boy

Jay Ray: and I knew what was about to happen.

So this is

after the point where these record store owners had gotten arrested for, like, selling 2 Live Crew

albums. And but he was also looking at me as, like, what? A 12-year-old.

And it's like, "This is for him?" And he's like, "This record is really explicit," and said that.

And my dad looked at me, and he was like, "What the hell you got me buying?" And we m-

Sir Daniel: I

Jay Ray: out of the store. He was so angry because I was trying to play him. In all fairness to him, I was trying to

play [00:38:00] him

Sir Daniel: and, you know, and so we, this, this is the part of our memories that are fun, and you know, the s- the whole thing about 2 Live Crew. 2 Live Crew represented fun and good times for the most part. But you know, of course, with anything the f- with anything else, there's a time and place for everything, and the fun ends.

The fun comes to a end. And a lot of times like we see with countless, not just hip hop acts, but music- musicians, um, across the board that are groups, there's always, if not, I don't think there's any time where disputes do not come up within groups that ultimate lead, ultimately lead to the demise and the end of the group.

You know,

The Dissolution of 2 Live Crew

Sir Daniel: 2 Live Crew, of course, came to an end in the, um, in the mid-'90s

Jay Ray: yep

Sir Daniel: m- mostly because of business.

Jay Ray: Absolutely. Always

Sir Daniel: Luke being a, [00:39:00] a shrewd businessman that he is, was handling all the business,

Jay Ray: Yep

Sir Daniel: owned the name,

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm

Sir Daniel: of course, I'm sure when it came to paying out roy- royalties and whatnot, you know, I, I, I didn't see the split sheets, I can't say, but I'm certain that the disputes were, "Hey, we're not getting our fair share."

Especially someone like, um, Brother Marquis who wrote the, the "Me So Horny" al- record which wa- was a multi-platinum single and a multi-platinum album, I'm sure was like, "Hey, this can't be what I'm supposed to be receiving." And so here we go. This begins the dissolve of 2 Live Crew as we know it. And what we've seen over the years is we will see, it's like climax.

We will see different versions of 2 Live Crew. We'll see Uncle Luke presents 2 Live Crew, and it'll be him and two new rappers. And [00:40:00] then we'll see the original 2 Live Crew with Fresh Kid Ice and Brother Marquis and, um, DJ Mr. Mixx doing their thing. And sadly, you know, those are the things that happen and, you know, Luke, like you said, beco- goes on to become the face of this movement, and not for nothing literally becomes the star out of this whole situation

Transition

​

Remembering Fresh Kid Ice and Brother Marquis

Sir Daniel: Unfortunately, back in 2017, we lost, um Fresh Christopher Wong, Fresh Kid Ice, we lost him. He pa**ed away. And only two years ago, as a matter of fact, um, the anniversary just pa**ed of the death of Brother Marquis on June 5th, 2024. So those brothers are no longer here. Um, but the legacy still lives on, Jay Ray.

The legacy of 2 Live [00:41:00] Crew is still a thing. And, um, you know, we still get... Listen, I'm- one of my favorite things is to drop "Hoochie Mama" in a set because when that guitar comes in, that dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, you should see like the frenzy on people's faces when that song comes on. And, and women especially just lose it.

Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. Big booty hoes, hump with it. And then everybody just goes into a tirade and just has a good time. Just, I mean, I have nothing but fond memories of 2 Live Crew music and, and the other artists that they spawned, because they literally spawned a whole genre of hip-hop, a wh- a whole new branch of hip-hop that literally took over the world.

We would not have Trick Daddy or Tr- or the Baddest Bitch. We would not have Trina if it weren't for a [00:42:00] 2 Live Crew

Jay Ray: Yeah, it is important. Like, they spawned all of those groups that came, uh, uh, all of those labels and groups. And the way- And I mean, I don't think we said this in, um, the intro, but I think it's really important. Luke Skyywalker Records they're basically like the Southern version of Def Jam at that time.

So that's how important this record, that this, this group is and what they created. Um, Sir Daniel, I don't know if you've heard about this, but

The Masters Fight & Unfinished Business

Jay Ray: they are, um, currently, 2 Live Crew is back in the news, um, because one of the things that they're trying to, to, um, reclaim... So when, uh, Luke Records in 1995, when they filed for bankruptcy, after all of this stuff, so they, of course they have all of these lawsuits,

and this really helps dissolve the group in a lot of ways, too. So there's these financial disputes. There's this huge [00:43:00] First Amendment fight that they have. The re- record label loses all of this money, and so at that time they lose control of those master recordings.

So from all of those early records, they lose that control of all of those rec- all of those masters, uh, in the bankruptcy fight. And so now they are back in that fight. So they just a couple of weeks ago, um, they had, uh, well, in 2024 they had won a jury verdict in 2020, uh, 4 that would give them the masters back The owner of those masters decided like, "No, no, no.

We are gonna appeal this decision." And just a couple of weeks ago, or, uh, recently, the appeals court overturned the 2024 decision. So there's an ongoing legal battle right now for 2 Live [00:44:00] Crew, uh, so that's Luke and Mr. Mixx, and of course the, the heirs of, uh, uh, the other members who are, are

pa**ed on, Fresh Kid Ice and, and brother Marquis,

Sir Daniel: Markees

Jay Ray: to get, um, control

of that music back. Um, so it's an unfortunate situation where even now this group that was so foundational caught up in the mix of the music business, and what happens when you get caught up in the mix of the music business. And, uh, and, uh, hopefully they are able to secure the rights to their masters again that unfortunately got lost in kind of these, uh, these pieces of, of bankruptcies and, and doing all of this stuff.

But I belie- I just, uh, these, these men deserve it.

There's too much hip hop history

Sir Daniel: So I'm, I'm glad you said that.

2 Live Crew's Legacy, Hall of Fame & Southern Hip Hop's Roots

Sir Daniel: Do you think that 2 Live [00:45:00] Crew deserves to be inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame?

Jay Ray: Oh, hell yeah. Um, I don't know that there is a, uh ...In the groups in the South, there are plenty of landmark groups in the South. But I think that 2 Live Crew changed too much about the way hip-hop behaved overall

to not be considered, uh, for induction and inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. I feel like there are things that are happening right now, you know, in terms of, you know, you talk about Uncle Luke and his call and response and the, uh, the stuff that happens, uh, in New Orleans now, and

all of this stuff, I really do feel like 2 Live Crew was, you know, really on the vanguard of, of moving that in hip-hop.

Sir Daniel: Abso- listen, you get no disputes from me [00:46:00] here. As a matter of fact, one of the, um , and I know a lot of people like to dispute who did what first. I think there, my, my belief is I think that there was a simultaneous spark

Jay Ray: Yeah. Absolutely.

Sir Daniel: in Florida, in Alabama, in Louisiana, in Texas. Hip-hop, there was a simultaneous spark of hip-hop in all of these different re- regions and states of hip-hop, right?

Now, who came to the forefront and who got more national popularity is up for discussion. Who signed this deal, who did all of that, all of that is up for discussion. I do think things happened simultaneously, and because Black people being, um, how inventive we are in whatever region we're in, we're gonna have a regional twist on everything.

And so I, like you said, I believe [00:47:00] that 2 Live Crew, Uncle Lu, all of them, to your point, s- did that for Miami, did that for Florida. They were the ones that signed MC Shy D to his record deal, who is, for all intents and purposes, probably one of the, one of the most first nationally recognized rappers to come out of, uh, Atlanta, who, by the way, is from the Bronx.

Is from the Bronx originally. So, eh, that, so that just says that we're all interconnected. Yes, we're divided by state lines, but hip-hop is all interconnected. It doesn't matter where in this country or in the world we are, hip-hop has connected us in some form or fashion

Jay Ray: Mm.

My goodness. Y'all, thank you so much for hanging out with us as we discuss the, uh, brilliant and interesting legacy of 2 Live Crew and how it has impacted us. Let us know in the comments, um, [00:48:00] how 2 Live Crew, how did you come to hear 2 Live Crew? How did the music of 2 Live Crew impact you, and where are you from? Let us know. If you can see our faces and hear our voices, go ahead and subscribe. Uh, tell your friends, family, and colleagues about Queue Points, because if you love Queue Points, chances are they will love Queue Points as well. Uh, visit our website at queuepoints.com, where you can watch our entire archive of episodes.

Visit us on Substack, where we have a bunch of dope stuff over there, and shop our store at store.queuepoints.com. Oh, and do not forget, become a member on our website, too. It helps to keep

the lights on in Queue Points land. We appreciate y'all. We love y'all

Sir Daniel: We absolutely do. And like I say, in this life, you have a choice. You can always either pick up the needle or you can let the record play. I am DJ Sir Daniel

Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray, y'all

Sir Daniel: And this is Queue Points podcast dropping the needle on Black music history.

We will see you on the next go round. Now put your hands up on your waist and do the hydraulic to the [00:49:00] ground. Boom.

Jay Ray: A-a-a.

Sir Daniel: Hydraulic. Ah, ah, ah. Hydraulics.

Jay Ray: Y'all can't see us dancing over here if you audio. Peace, y'all.

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