A Deep Dive Into Salt-N-Pepa's Legacy By Ranking Their Albums

Episode Transcript

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[00:00:00] How To Support Queue Points

[00:00:50] Intro Theme (Music by Danya Vodovoz)

[00:01:21] Welcome to Queue Points

DJ Sir Daniel: Greetings and welcome back to another episode of Queue Points. I am DJ Sir Daniel,

Jay Ray: My name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III. What's happening, people? Sir Daniel, you're in a new spot. Everything's different.

DJ Sir Daniel: you know, I, I had, I had to get fresh for y'all, you know, show off my slow jams can heal us t shirt along with my, um, you know, my Queue Points and slow jams buttons and whatnot. And so I figured because we're discussing records, why not get in front of the records tonight and, you know, just switch it up a little bit, shift the vibes a little bit.

Jay Ray: Um, sir, Daniel,

DJ Sir Daniel: Yes.

Jay Ray: how are you feeling about tonight's topic that we're about to get into?

[00:02:06] DJ Sir Daniel's Lifelong Fandom & The Impact of Salt-N-Pepa

DJ Sir Daniel: I mean, you gotta know. I mean, at this point for all the people that are watching us live and that are tuned in and that have been following us for a while, no. That DJ Sir Daniel is probably the number one Salt-N-Pepa stand before standing was even a thing. I've been riding with those young ladies since I was 10 years old.

Um, since I heard the showstopper when they were known as super nature and they were just two college students at Queens. Um, You know, helping a boyfriend who was a burgeoning producer with his music project, you know, helping him out to record a disc record that would go on to make history and solidify them as the most commercially successful female hip hop rap group in the world.

Ever. There has been none to come behind them since I say that again, there has been none to come behind them since that has had the impact that they've had.

Jay Ray: Absolutely. Like, um, so I did not, okay.

[00:03:19] Jay Ray's Introduction to Salt-N-Pepa & Their Cultural Significance

Jay Ray: So I haven't been a fan as long as DJ Sir Daniel, right? Because I came to Salt N Pepa by way of, um, Push It. Um, so I remember in 1986, that song impacted like every corner of the globe. And, and you know, what's interesting about that song, um, that year was interesting.

Cause you know, we had Run DMC's Walk This Way. We had Salt N Pepa's Push It. It was just like a breakout year. And I remember hearing that song. I'm like, Oh my God, these girls are like, cool. Who are they? And they had a fly video. They had asymmetrical haircuts and. Colorful leather jackets and then of course what started to happen is the video started to play and then I got introduced to songs like Tramp and like all this other stuff.

And so I also immediately fell in love with them as soon as I heard the cadence of Their voices and the way that they as a duo kind of bounced off of each other I felt like where some groups You That absolutely did the bouncing back and forth. I felt like s and p had a, just a particular way of doing it that reeled you in.

Mm-Hmm.

DJ Sir Daniel: I would agree. Um, there was. It was no mystery to me as, as somebody who listened to them intently and was, you know, a student of rap music at that became a student of rap music at that time. It was no mystery to me that they were patterned after their queen's queen. cousins run DMC, you know, they, the, the, like you said, the cadence, the, the delivery, the back and forth delivery that they work very hard on, um, to perfect because a lot of people can't do that.

And that takes a skill because it takes, It really takes a symbiosis between two people to finish each other's sentences like that, especially when it comes to rhyming. And so that was to me, I picked up on all of that and they were just fun. They were just cool. Like you said, the, the jackets, the asymmetrical haircuts, you know, to what really, really got me into them was when I, um, And I'll share more about this when we start ranking our favorite.

Well, we'll start ranking Salt N Pepa albums and I'll tell you why. So matter of fact, I'll save that for when we start talking about it. But I think we should, you know, we've been.

[00:06:01] The Unmatched Influence of Salt-N-Pepa in Hip-Hop

Let's first and foremost acknowledge that this is Women's International History Month and as you know as a music show Always talking about music history We want to give flowers to the people that are sometimes unsung and I think as as awarded as Salt N Pepa are They're still They're still kind of footnotes

Jay Ray: Yes.

DJ Sir Daniel: In the history of hip hop and to, and with our, with our dog and pony show, our cool show Queue Points, we're going to, we're putting them on a higher, a higher level because we know what they've accomplished and what they've done over the years.

So, and we've been talking about Salt N Pepa for a while too, more so along the lines of discussing Herbie Lovebug, who was at one point their longtime producer, um, and kind of the, the man behind the magic. You know, of Salt N Pepa and all the things that we discussed and how, from the very beginning, like I said, from that, that project that he did for the music class that ended up as the answer to Doug E.

Fresh's The Show, The Showstopper, to Up Until Black's Magic, where he kind of stood back and, um, You know, kind of let the ladies do it.

[00:07:23] The Origin Story of Queue Points Inspired by Salt-N-Pepa

DJ Sir Daniel: But before we go any further, Jerry, I want to say that get, I want to give it up for us because here we are. I don't know if you guys have seen it and I hope you did see it.

We have put up the origin story of Queue Points on our website and Salt-N-Pepa is the reason for Queue Points

Jay Ray: Yes.

is the

DJ Sir Daniel: reason for Queue Points.

Jay Ray: Yes. So it's interesting. So, um, in 2021, so this is in the, the height of the pandemic, of course, lifetime releases, the Salt-N-Pepa biopic. And I had to talk to DJ, sir, Daniel about the biopic. Now here's the thing, sir. Daniel, I think, you know, this, I ain't seen the whole biopic. I've seen like pieces of the biopic.

I didn't, I didn't watch the whole thing, but for good reason. Right. So, but ended up talking to DJ, sir, Daniel about this. And it ended up, we tunneled down this rabbit hole of like, and I remember you specifically saying. Sir, Daniel, these women are going to mess up their legacy and here we and then we were like We should talk about this on a platform and that conversation became Queue Points Yeah.

DJ Sir Daniel: ladies and gentlemen, that is the legend of Queue Points. And we have Cheryl, Sandy, and Deedee to thank for it.

[00:08:56] Transition

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[00:09:06] Ranking Salt-N-Pepa's Albums: A Nostalgic Journey

DJ Sir Daniel: So, I mean, without further ado, we're here to rank these albums, right, Jay Ray? So, you want to just go ahead and start it off? All right.

Jay Ray: Do we want to rank? Yes. Let's rank these albums. We are going to jump into first of all, we haven't been here in a while. Sir. Daniel.

DJ Sir Daniel: So the chalkboard.

Jay Ray: We're at the chalkboard folks. It has been a long time since we have been here and I think we are going okay. Caveat, by the way, when we do this. I don't know. We don't know what each other's going to say.

Like I have no idea what DJ Sir Daniel's ranking is and he does not know what my ranking is. I want y'all to definitely, we've been putting it in the chat for those of you that are joining us, joining us live, please go and drop your ranking. But Sir Daniel, I guess we can start with number five. So Please tell me what your number five is, and then I'll tell you what my number five is, and then we can talk about it.

DJ Sir Daniel: Okay, so I will first start off by saying the way that I ranked my albums, the albums were based on a couple of, on some criteria. My number one pick is based on cultural impact. My number two pick is based on sentimental value. My number three pick Is, um, the nostalgic, um, appeal of the album. And number four is going to be their commercial success.

And number five, I didn't put much thought into number five, because it's my least favorite.

[00:10:46] The Controversial Ranking: Brand New and A Salt With A Deadly Pepa

DJ Sir Daniel: It's my least favorite of the albums. Um, I've never actually even purchased it. And that is brand new brand new was their final studio album that came out in

Jay Ray: Seven.

DJ Sir Daniel: Came out in 1997. Um, the reason, not funny thing. The reason it's my least favorite album is because of a, a record store industry innovation called the listening station.

Jay Ray: Yes.

DJ Sir Daniel: I used to, you know, you talking about somebody who was into them since I was 10. So by the time I had got a little spending money, I was buying rap. Sight unseen like if it just if I saw the cover if it was somebody that I recognized from video music box YomTV raps and I kind of liked them I would buy it sight unseen and then I would just listen to it once I got home, but by 1997 record stores had an innovation called listening station boy stations boys and girls and you were able if It was a big release The record store guaranteed to have a listening station that featured that particular album And of course, I can't remember which I don't remember if it was um, I can't remember which one I don't know if it was tower or hmv, but I went I listened and I listened and I listened and for the very and I legit got sad because I was like I'm not really connecting with anything here.

Now, you know, I kind of, I dug giddy up and I dug, are you ready? Cause they, they had videos attached to them and they were, you know, they were kind of bouncy and flashy videos. Hype Williams directed, um, are you ready? If I'm not mistaken. Um, but other than that, getting into the rest of it, I just did not. just did not stick with me. I, it was too, it was like it was trying too hard.

Jay Ray: hmm.

DJ Sir Daniel: And then Jerry, we got to talk about the fact that this was 1997. Their first album came out in 86 styles change. There was a whole new, you know, era of. Women, because by then we, by then we've had hardcore and we've had ill Nana.

And I, of course was fans. I'm fans of both of those young ladies and their work. And here's Salt-N-Pepa where they're trying to keep up and catch up with the times and to, but stay true to themselves, but still try to contend and hold their spot as the. Female rap group, premier female rap group, because again, even up until that point, there are no other female rap groups in contention for that title.

It is literally Salt N Pepa's game to lose.

Jay Ray: absolutely. Um, completely agree. I cannot wait to I hear everything that you said. I'm going to save my commentary on brand new for where my ranking is, but my number five is actually A Salt With A Deadly Pepa. That's okay. I need to explain my rankings now. So as people gonna be like what? So here's what I did.

I actually went back. And listen to the Salt-N-Pepa records, right? I was like I haven't heard these records in a long time. Brand new is a record that in 1997, I absolutely hated. I have a whole other thought that we'll get to when I rank the record. So I went back is what I'm saying is I went back and I listened to the records and I listened and.

For. Body of work

DJ Sir Daniel: Mm

Jay Ray: as it related to the album now, here's the thing about Salt-N-Pepa that makes Salt-N-Pepa incredibly special Even on the records, even though A Salt With A Deadly Pepa is ranked my number five There's three bangers on this record that are in my top five my top ten of like Salt-N-Pepa songs so it's like No shade to the to the to the album.

So the reason why actually A Salt With A Deadly Pepa for me ended up being number five is Listening back to it, the record kind of felt like a group that is finding its way. It was kind of a little bit of hot, cool, and vicious with a little bit of the future, and it felt a mess, but it also, uh, Um, there was more pop stuff on this joint that I remembered and I was like, Oh, they were really throwing the spaghetti against the wall as it comes to getting on the pop charts and the A Salt With A Deadly Pepa just felt.

Disjointed like I even was listening to The first song and i'm like they don't rap in this joint to like two minutes in because it's like a production It's like a herbie Production song and i'm like this is like Not a Salt-N-Pepa album. This is a herbie lovebug album with Salt-N-Pepa on it Is where I, where I ended up landing.

DJ Sir Daniel: Mm hmm.

Jay Ray: Now, keep in mind, these women only got five records and there's bangers on all five of them, but I ranked A Salt With A Deadly Pepa as my fifth Salt-N-Pepa record. Um, I'll go back and pump those singles, but I probably won't listen to this album again.

DJ Sir Daniel: Got it. No. And you know what? I, I don't disagree with your thinking because, and I'll tell you when I get to that, I'll tell you my thoughts around that album, but for my number four,

Jay Ray: your number four?

DJ Sir Daniel: I have a visual aid,

Jay Ray: Really?

DJ Sir Daniel: four is very necessary.

Jay Ray: Oh, interesting.

DJ Sir Daniel: And so I, so like I said, I ranked, um, my number four based on commercial success. Like, these are the things that are important to me as far as Salt N Pepa is concerned. So that's how I ranked the albums. So commercial success came with number four. Of course, Very Necessary was propelled by the Shoop single, which lasted, which was on the charts, God knows how long. And then. It was pushed even further by the what a man single in vogue. So that was, and that was a combo, you know, we talking about hottest female rap group combined with the hottest R and B group. And this is when all the, the original members of invoke were still together. They were coming off.

They were still hot off of their, um, the, the, the funky divas album. So they were.

Jay Ray: prior. Yeah.

DJ Sir Daniel: together, I mean, out of here video of the video accompanying it, all of that. So that, so that led to, um, to a lot of attention. It led to a lot of crossover radio, pop radio charts and everything.

And then that led the Grammys to, um, the Grammys to take notice of the none of your business single, which personally. I'm not a big fan of none of your business. There was something about it that was kind of, eh, I really, I really didn't like that as far as, you know, thinking that was going to be the song that would propel them to, to get their first Grammy.

But in fact, none of your business is the song that they were nominated for and became Grammy award winning hip Pepa for none of your business. And, You know, they could probably, they could care less how we write these albums because they're, they're, they're solidified, they're, they're icons, but you know, that's just how I felt about this album.

Now, there was some, there's some parts of this record that feel a little disjointed as well, but all in all it was, I was so happy to see them back. And J. Rae, did you realize it was like three years between? Black's magic and very necessary coming out three years

Jay Ray: Three years and that actually, um, was a long time in hip hop years.

DJ Sir Daniel: very long

Jay Ray: And that is going to come up in when I talk about, um, very necessary as well. But let me tell you, so my number four, um, my number four is actually hot, cool and vicious. Now, right? So, I absolutely adore hot, cool and vicious. Um, there is, uh, so for all of these records, like I said, when I went back, I went back and, and considered body of work and what's cool about hot, cool and vicious is there's so many classics on the album.

Um, this is also, um, once again, it felt. Knowing the history of Herbie Lovebug, when I listen to Hot, Cool, and Vicious, much like when I listen to A Salt With A Deadly Pepa, I'm like, Oh, this is like a Herbie Lovebug album with Salt N Pepa on it, right? And While I like the body of work better than A Salt With A Deadly Pepa I felt like it was just like a better collection of songs I don't feel like um In listening to it that they like that their personality had fully formed yet And so that's why I ended up ranking this here because when I went back and I listened to it i'm like I love this.

I like these body of, I like these songs. Um, I don't love this like whole as a whole better than A Salt With A Deadly Pepa. Still not in my top three of Salt-N-Pepa albums, which is really interesting. So Sir Daniel, what is your number three?

DJ Sir Daniel: Well since you since you dogged it out, and I'm just

Jay Ray: Oh

DJ Sir Daniel: a Salt With Deadly Pepa Now, so I ranked this number three because of nostalgic value to me. This album came out in 88 and we had a whole, if you go back and listen, we had a whole series about 1988 as, as far as a, uh, uh,

Jay Ray: Mm

DJ Sir Daniel: a turn, just a year.

Of greatness for hip hop, 1988. A lot of groundbreaking albums came out in 88. Um, this album or yes, this album, I believe took Salt-N-Pepa to the Grammys as well, and led them to be a part of the boycott because the Grammys weren't televised. So that was that. But as I was saying, 88 was a special year for me.

I turned 13 in 88. So I was, that's a big deal. I was a teenager. Although, you know, a preteen, but it's still a teenager. And, um, this was the very first album that I bought with my own money. And it, it meant a lot. And so, and another thing, so the videos, the videos meant everything. The videos were everything to me because they had shake your thing and they had get up everybody.

If, and since we're all this topic of TikTok, if you think about it, get up, everybody is the very first TikTok video because Salt-N-Pepa do the, the very first costume

Jay Ray: Right?

DJ Sir Daniel: with the hand and the camera. So they, they ended, they were innovating on this album. This album contains shake your thing, get up everybody.

And what's another one that, Oh, um, the two solo joints on

Jay Ray: I love Salt's solo joint on this record. What is it? Let? Oh, shit.

DJ Sir Daniel: It's Let's Get Paid, Let's

Jay Ray: get paid. God.

DJ Sir Daniel: Power, Let's Get Paid. And of course, Peppa had, um, Peppa had, uh, syncopated soul. Um, now what also makes this special is that on the side notes, you see that this says featuring Spinderella,

Jay Ray: hmm.

DJ Sir Daniel: who at this point is Dee Dee Roper. And, um, who also had her own, her very own song about her on this album.

Spinderella's not a fella. So there was so many groundbreaking things about this album, you know, the videos, I took into consideration all of that as to why I ranked this as my number three Salt-N-Pepa pick. It meant a lot to me. Um, I remember as I started, actually you were with me when I restarted buying vinyl because my good sister, um, my good sisters, um, Peppermint Gaddy and Lady Marauder were doing a pop up vinyl.

Over at Scratch Academy in Atlanta. And this was the record that I bought off of Lisa, A Salt With A Deadly Pepa. It meant a lot to me. It really does. So for this, for some nostalgic reasons, A Salt With A Deadly Pepa is my number three.

Jay Ray: I love it.

[00:24:52] Revisiting Brand New: A Record Ahead of Its Time

So my number three, uh, which surprised me is actually brand new. Um, so I did not remember brand new. Like I. Because, because I think this is the time where we have to talk about this period in time. So between very necessary and brand new. Was four years. Now in that four years, Salt N Pepa did some miraculous things because they weren't just like off.

Jay Ray: They were, you know, performing on Lilith Fair and like all of these big tours. They were Releasing their they released their women's empowerment song. There ain't nothing but a she thing right that became a whole moment Um, they released now we're heading because that was 95 and then by 96 we're in the jiggy era Bad boy is in full effect Jay z is hitting the scene And so everybody is doing that so champagne comes right which is very much in that party vein that everybody's doing but now keep in mind They don't have a project and back then kids, it wasn't like now where it was like it was you could drop singles, but your singles were meant to lead to a project.

Whereas now you could drop a single and keep dropping singles that don't have to have a project. So by the time brand new arrives in 97. To your earlier point, the landscape of hip hop, particularly for women, has completely changed because now Kim and Foxx are on the scene. And so when Brand New hit, It didn't sound, it sounded behind the times at that moment.

But here's the thing. When I went back and I listened to it, brand new sounds perfect today. And I'm like, Oh, I was listening with my 20 year old ears in 1997. This wasn't hitting to me because we had this other stuff going on. Now here's the interesting. So the interesting thing is I feel like if brand new had hit like a year earlier before hardcore, and, um, and, and, uh, uh, ill nana hit.

It actually would have had a shot but I think 95 would have been the real sweet spot Because we were still in the r'n'b singing over rap Moments at that point it wasn't that far removed from very necessary but I think When I went back and I listened to Brand new I felt good. I was like this record feels warm to me it feels Empowering you could tell or I could tell that salt Really did put a lot of care into it and you know with also this Uh highlighted for me and it reflects in my my top two is What salt did was she basically?

Took what herbie was doing and made it like from a woman's perspective

DJ Sir Daniel: facts

Jay Ray: And that's the thing that really comes through with brand new is I felt like i'm like there's something on there's a sprinkling on this record that in 2024 I really like so You I say justice for brand new I think I think folks should go back and revisit the record and I really do I feel like if the label that they were on Could have figured hadn't hadn't gone bankrupt before the record came out.

They could have figured this one out There's a lot of songs on here. You know where this would be great If there is a kickback hip hop joint where Dred Scott is playing and Diggable Planets are playing You can put in a song from brand new it would slip right in with no problem um

DJ Sir Daniel: So it's like a, it's like, it's like, it's like a pot of spaghetti. It's even better the next day.

Jay Ray: It's a it's like a pot of spaghetti because you know to season it as my mom say the seasoning go through it

DJ Sir Daniel: Settled. It's settled. Okay. You know what I, I respect that. I really do, because I agree with you on. Um, especially your analysis of salt, Cheryl James and what she did. So, but we're headed to number two, right?

[00:29:59] Diving into Hip Hop Nostalgia: Salt-N-Pepa's Iconic Albums

Jay Ray: Mm hmm. What's your number two?

DJ Sir Daniel: Number two

Jay Ray: Boom.

DJ Sir Daniel: is hot, cool and vicious for me.

[00:30:06] The Sentimental Favorite: Hot, Cool & Vicious

DJ Sir Daniel: Now, number two is, I said, was my sentimental favorite sentimental because this was my forward foray.

This is my gateway drug into hip hop. This was the cassette that I borrowed from Leona Fred and kept for weeks. Even though she threatened to tell on me if I didn't give it back to her. I had this for weeks. I would read the liner notes backwards and forwards. Um, and what I didn't realize about this is that until much later, when I was older, I realized that there are two versions of this album, one that does not contain push it because this album was released December 5th, 1986.

Then I think around that December 5th, 1986 was released,

Jay Ray: December 8th 1986. I'm just looking it up you right there

DJ Sir Daniel: I'm right there. So, but did not contain pushy because. They didn't go back and do push it yet. Um, what else? This album represents that back and forth style that we were talking about earlier with Run DMC. It's like they took, they, they saw the template, the Run DMC template, but they made it theirs.

They were clearly, they were clearly young ladies. They were clearly having a lot more fun. They were clearly, they clearly had a fashion point of view, even though it was, it was considered very around the way girl fashions and nobody, you know, that was attainable. So I think that's what made them. Very, um, hands on and hands on favorites in very early in their career.

And also this has, this contains my mic sounds nice, which if you ask male, if you ask men and women of a certain age to, you know, list like, um, their top hip hop songs, my mic sounds nice is like. Groundbreaking in and of itself because it incorporates go go and that caller response That back and forth is just so it's funky It's laid back, but it's still hard hitting that kick will never go out of style You could drop this now and people will still get down to it.

But um Yes, so everybody knows that Push It came along because once they released the Tramp single, the video for Tramp, they had to have a b side for it. So they went in and put Push It on the back of it. A DJ out in LA flipped the record over, played it, and History, this thing, like Jerry said earlier, push it, took off, push it, took them to places, push it, took them to Europe, took them to South Africa, um, to perform well, it took them to stages to perform for live aid, I should say, which was about Nelson Mandela.

So it took. Them at the very beginning of their career to some very big stages some very big platforms So that that's why this album is undeniable and ranked so high in my preferences of Salt N Pepa albums

[00:33:30] Blacks Magic: Finding the Groove

Jay Ray: Listen, How Cool and Vicious is a classic, um, my number two, which was almost my number one, is Blacks Magic. Um, you want to talk about a group who found their groove? Now this is where I was like, you know, it was interesting. Like I said, when I went back and I listened to those records, I was like, Oh, they was like, Oh, we in our pocket now.

Well, because one, We had four years of them making records together, right? Salt, um, was like, I can do something. And not only did she do something, she gave them their first number one, right? With Expression. Um, and that song, that, you want to talk about a great first single? That It was out the box they was fashion forward remember they was wearing the all black with the wigs Salt had the big top hat.

DJ Sir Daniel: that

Jay Ray: this record Culturally for me Hold such a special place in my heart because this is you know 1990 but this record is one of those records that went for a couple of years, so Peppa got pregnant. They had to take a break, but it didn't stop nothing because don't they came back on a second leg of promotion for this album and and the single still hit so saying all this to say Um, from a sentimental standpoint and just the New Jack Swing production, the incorporation of the R& B elements.

Which brand new really was like, Oh, the culmination of black's magic, very necessary. I think, of course, starting with A Salt With A Deadly Pepa, but I think brand new ended up being the culmination of what salt learned about incorporating the R and B sensibilities. That really. Sits well in black's magic and you got an HIV anthem when they rewrote.

Let's talk about sex So they're leaning into their empowerment bag and you got a house classic with do you really want me? Which I'm gonna tell you when you know a classic when you can't hear the song without doing the video. Remember the head

DJ Sir Daniel: Choreography, yep

Jay Ray: tech that and then they jump listen And I'm like, you can't, you, that, that matters.

So my number two, um, which I might as well go ahead and do it 'cause I know what your number one is now. I feel like you're gonna continue this conversation.

DJ Sir Daniel: I mean, you said everything that I was going to say about Blacksmagic, because Blacksmagic is my number one. Um, first of all, if you think back on hip hop records that came out between 89, 90, there's not a whole lot of them that have hand drawn arts, cover art. This is hand painted cover art. Um, I'm not sure who the artist was, but if you look closely on the, on the, um, On the cover, Salt, Pepa, and Spinderella have a big magic book that's opened up.

And from the magic book are spirits of greats like Billie Holiday, um, Louis Armstrong, Jimi Hendrix, anybody who could think of. So they are in fact paying homage. They realized at that point, they're paying homage to the people that came before them and were paying homage to, to black music history, which is what we do here on Key Points.

And again, to, to, to what you, to your point earlier, Jay Ray, salt had to step up, you know, the, the, the record label next plateau was like, all right, what's next. And, you know, Herbie is doing his thing. A lot of personal stuff as well. And salt is like, you know what? I I'm, I'm invested in this. And I've got something to prove she has something to prove to him as well.

So this became a personal vendetta for her. And so that's why you're absolutely right. This album has her, her DNA all in it. It also has the DNA of Spinderella in it. Because to your point, to your point, because Pepa was pregnant.

Jay Ray: Yep. Yep.

DJ Sir Daniel: The first one to get pregnant out of the group, she was unable to make some of the studio time.

So who had to pinch it? But Spinderella and Spinderella at her age killed it. She was on especially the title track, Black's Magic. She sets it off. She kicks the first rhyme. And so, and she did it with such conviction. And, um, it, The title track to the album is very, is an ode to blackness and a lot of, you know, that was new for, I guess people weren't expecting Salt N Pepa to speak up on, on blackness at such an early time, but you're correct in, um, incorporating R& B.

The New Jack swing expression was, Out of there. I mean, the kids, we were eating expression up and, um, when I was a freshman in high school and, um, what else was going on on this album? Okay. So you had mentioned that this album had legs and I think that's an understatement. So Jay Ray's point, this album came out, really came out in 89.

Jay Ray: exactly. 'cause yeah. Expression was 89.

DJ Sir Daniel: Expression came out in 89. The album followed shortly. So then you had expression and then you, um, Pepa had her baby. Then they showed up with independent and that was, um, that was supported by Sybil, who is a fantastic, um, One of them artists that don't get her credit, but anyway, so Sybil assists on that record and that record, that record gives them some more legs, takes them, you know, takes them to club MTV, those MTV appearances, BET, they perform it, you know, here and there.

And then. I think around the summertime, do you want me

Jay Ray: Mm-Hmm.

DJ Sir Daniel: We're well into 1990 by now. Do you want me drops? And then I'm going to fast forward. One of the things that they did on this album, this was one of the first albums that. Innovated the remix and when I say you have producers like Marley Marl doing remixes Like we saw how it worked for LL Marley Marley Marl remix would take LL's records to another level That's what they did on this album because they would take a lot of these records like you showed me

Jay Ray: Mm-Hmm.

DJ Sir Daniel: Do like a street version and then flip it into a club version and that extended the lifespan of this album even more and of course, like you said, um the um Let's talk about sex record is historic became a, um, an HIV anthem to your, to your point earlier, which extended them and took them even further and put them in the faces of a lot more people.

So these women put in a lot of work. I mean, only five albums, but five albums in hip hop terms. That's a lot. That is a lot of work, a lot of work to stand on, and they deserve every bit of the accolades that they, that they receive.

Jay Ray: I absolutely agree. And you know another thing, I remember, um, an interview where, because this is the, this is the, the late 80s, early 90s where it was just a different time. And I remember Salt having to clarify. The record is called Blacks Magic with an apostrophe because they're talking about the power of black people.

Like she had to, she said it to make sure that the people, cause what they put people wanted to do is like, is this voodoo? Is this, what are we talking about here? Um, and she was like, let me be very clear about you read the spelling of the album. We are talking about. Our magic as black people and I remember being like, yeah, that part, so black magic all day was almost my number one.

And then I went back and I listened to very necessary and I was like, Oh, that's my number one.

[00:42:31] Very Necessary: Breaking Through in '93

So, um, very necessary is where all, I think the things that we have, uh, talked about combined, um, to make for. Um, a project that was rightfully a hit. So, obviously very necessary as Salt N Pepa's biggest commercial success.

DJ Sir Daniel: For sure.

Jay Ray: never hit number one. Um, they actually, interestingly enough, never had a number one single. They always had top tens. Everything was like a top ten. But, for women in hip hop at that time, This is no, no, no, you don't get any higher

DJ Sir Daniel: That's the top of the mountain.

Jay Ray: it's top of the mountain and I would like to for a split second.

Paint the picture of 1993 because I think having this context is also really hard, really interesting given when very necessary hits. So I went and I looked, Sir Daniel, and I had to look and I was like, okay, so who, who released records commercially? There was a lot of rap records, but I went to the Wikipedia and was like, who dropped hip hop records in 1993?

Um, and then I'm like, okay, who are the women on the list though? So here's who I found. Monie Love, her second album, In a Word or Two, came out early in the year, right? Um, This was the year of the pivot. We've talked about this many times where the women in hip hop put on their baggy clothes, they put on their, their dark sunglasses and was like, we hard again because we was like girly girls on our last albums.

This year we back being hard. Get into it. Right. So, um, Yo yo and light dropped on the same day, but of course they're all under the same I think they were under the same umbrella like that was like the atlantic umbrella

DJ Sir Daniel: Rhea,

Jay Ray: Yeah, so MC light dropped ain't no other yo yo dropped. You better ask somebody on the same day, right?

So this is now like summer, um

DJ Sir Daniel: Roughneck wasn't nothing to play with. Roughneck, I think, might have been MC Lyte's first gold

Jay Ray: Yeah, right so roughneck becomes MC Lyte's biggest album. I'm sorry biggest single. Um, and But there's like a thing brewing. So there was a lot of ways that Salt N Pepa could've went, right? By the time their album comes out, by the time Shoop comes out We, one, salt again, right? Tapping into this, this, this, the nice, nasty, the sweet and sexy sort of thing.

The kind of we going, we gonna show you a little leg and then we gonna pull it back thing. You know what I mean? Show you the leg and then pull it back. Salt figured it out, right? So they drop Shoop, which is a you to your point a universal smash Everybody's into it. And so that song in terms of chart position is It's the fifth highest charting hip hop song that year.

You want to know what the number, by the way, this is interesting. Um, one of the biggest songs that hit number one in 1993, Sir Daniel and former by snow. With our, with our brother, MC Shan,

DJ Sir Daniel: And Farmer. Okay.

Jay Ray: right, saying all this to say, and then, of course, that's third quarter. And then Queen Latifah hits in the fourth quarter with Black Rain. Um, actually they're both fourth quarter because Salt N Pepa is like October, Queen Latifah is like November. Saying, why am I, why am I painting this picture? Because when I think about.

1993 and what was happening at the time Salt N Pepa broke through with Very Necessary doing A style of rap that women were not trying to do at that time right There was a lot of things that could have signaled don't do this And the fact that herbie salt and team did it anyway and Had so many singles from it because what a man ends up being one of the biggest songs of 1994 um positioned Salt-N-Pepa in Um in a class of their own they were one of the biggest rap groups ever So that's why very necessary by the way ends up being my number one record.

I think as a body of work It's kind of all the, all the things combined to make for a really solid project.

[00:47:55] Reflecting on Salt N Pepa's Legacy and Future

Jay Ray: But Sir Daniel, you know, when I went back and I listened to all of these records, what made me sad is that four years later, they would, that would, they would be on their last album.

DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah,

Jay Ray: never and I get it and I don't know if salts ever talked about this, but I would imagine salt was like, you know what?

I'm not doing this again. I put a lot of effort time. I never watched their reality show, so I don't know if they talked about it there, but. I would imagine that putting that much hard work into something and having it kind of blow up somewhat outside of your control, because it's like the machine that's there to push your project ain't there no more.

Like it's physically not present. Yep.

DJ Sir Daniel: based on the, the reality show, the, the, the Lifetime movie, um, salt had taken on a lot of the creative process behind the album starting. With Blacksmagic, she definitely was like took control and I think she took, she took so much control to the point of exhaustion according to her.

And so when the album, the brand new album didn't do what it was supposed to do and didn't yield what they thought it was going to yield. She was kind of like, you know what? I'm okay with this. Cause I mean, I'm tired. been carrying and she felt like she was carrying the group on her back basically.

Um, and so, and was not receiving the kind of support that she would have liked to receive. And so, yeah, you know, the body can only take so much. At that point, they're all three of them are mothers. And, you know, um, Engaged in, you know, all three of them were engaged in very public relationships that, that didn't do well publicly, you know, that had a lot of, um, that crashed and burned publicly.

And so they really could have. Um, really taking some bad turns, but to, to, to talk about something you was speaking on earlier, the fact, like, if we're going to talk about very necessary, what I take away from that album is that you're right. Women have to toe. It's a, it's a great lesson about how women have to toe a very thin line, especially in rap music, or at that time they were towing a very thin line of how to appeal to both men.

and women and also talk about subjects that everybody talks about, but they had to be very careful about how they approached it because the world, the world wasn't complete, didn't completely change at that time. There was a lot, the world, we didn't have social media. So women were still held at a very different, um, It held in a very different esteem.

And of course, very necessary is pre hardcore and ill nana. So they still, they couldn't do. So that's why cute. That's why shoop is such a cutesy, but relatable kind of way to talk about sex, but not being overt. And I think they should, they should be given credit for that because they showed that there's a way to talk about sex and to be sexy, but not be vulgar and over the top.

Because that's who Salt N Pepa were. They were the around the way girls and that, and they were also, they crossed over so much that they were in various people's homes and our parents knew about them. So in order for us to still bring home Salt N Pepa in record form, you know, we had to make sure that some, you know, they had to make sure that they were still presentable and acceptable to everybody.

In the family as it, as it were. And so I think that has to be respected when it comes to them in their career. Um, of course we, so we know about all the, the politics and the money that got involved. It was like when that red ant. Um, contract came through and everybody was like, Oh, this payday finally, you know, all we put in the hard, hard work, know, for years and for it to kind of just disintegrate is one of those rock and roll stories that is.

Is, um, unique, but it's not unique because a lot of people kind of money tends to be the thing that kind of brings things to a halt or highlights a lot of dysfunction within the artists or the group of artists.

Jay Ray: Yeah. Um, absolutely. I want to bring in a comment to answer the question from Mark McPherson who's over on Facebook. Shout out to Mark. Mark wanted to let us know that Charles Lilly is listed as the illustrator for Blacks Magic, which makes sense. So Mark also indicates he's best known for illustrating the cover of the autobiography of Malcolm X.

So I know exactly what that cover looks like. So that makes perfect sense.

DJ Sir Daniel: See this to that means that you could frame

Jay Ray: You could literally,

DJ Sir Daniel: of art.

Jay Ray: it's a

DJ Sir Daniel: Literally. It's a piece of art.

Jay Ray: Literally, so I wanted to bring in, um, our response from the folks about what's your favorite Salt-N-Pepa album. And folks, we have a tie actually. So, um, our listeners, um, voted for, uh, we have a tie at number one for A Salt With A Deadly Pepa and very necessary.

So, yep. So thank y'all for voting, uh, in the poll. Ha ha ha.

DJ Sir Daniel: Our Queue Points community always comes through. Thank you.

[00:54:09] Engaging with the Queue Points Community

Thank you for voting. Thank you for making your voices heard.

DJ Sir Daniel: Thank you all so much for tuning in to another episode of Queue Points. Jay Ray, um, let the people know one more time. How they could become a part of this legacy and family that we're building over here.

Jay Ray: Absolutely. Can I ask, I want to ask our folks a question. Do y'all like the new format? You know, we put the topic up at the top. We did our thing. Um, let us know if you like it. Send us a DM. We love getting your DMS. So send us a DM. Let us know what you like, what you love. Um, we are getting ready to launch some new things.

So we were testing some stuff right now. Um, but yeah, hit us up. Let us know if you like the new format with, um, the topic being at the top and that's doing this kind of towards the end. Um, so how can you get up with Queue Points? You can get up with Queue Points by doing exactly what you're doing right now. If you hear our voice, you see our faces, you are doing the right thing.

Go ahead and hit the subscribe button. If it has a notification bell, hit the notification bell so that you can be notified about new episodes of Queue Points. Um, definitely go ahead and, uh, share it with your friends. Uh, follow up with our newsletter or join our newsletter at magazine. Queue Points. com and you can shop our store.

You see that. That shirt that Sir Daniel has on Slow Jams can heal us. You can have your very own version of that along with the buttons. We have Slow Jams can heal us buttons and mugs. That was upside down mugs and things that you can get there.

DJ Sir Daniel: doing Queue Points

ASMR.

Jay Ray: all of that at store dot Queue Points dot com.

And just thank you all so much for continuing to rock with. Us, we are always innovating and excited to just hang out with y'all and do the things. So thank y'all so much.

DJ Sir Daniel: All right. That's going to do it for us. Jay Ray, what do I always say in this life? You have a choice. You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play. I'm DJ Sir Daniel,

Jay Ray: I am Jay Ray, y'all

DJ Sir Daniel: and this is Queue Points podcast, dropping the needle on black music history. We'll see you on the next go round. Peace.

Jay Ray: peace.

[00:56:26] Closing Theme