All That We Can Say: A Deep Dive Into Ms. Lauryn Hill's Career

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

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[00:00:00] Intro Theme (Music by Danya Vodovoz)
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[00:00:30] Introduction and Welcome
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DJ Sir Daniel: Greetings and welcome back to QPoints Podcast, dropping the needle on black music history. I am DJ Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray: And my name is J Ray, sometimes known by my government as Johnny Ray Cornegay, the third. What's happening? People?

DJ Sir Daniel: J Ray, we are back. this is the third year of QPoints,

Jay Ray: Yeah. Ain't that something? 

[00:00:51] Reflecting on the Journey of QPoints Podcast
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Jay Ray: You know, this thing that started as an idea has blossomed into a labor of love for the both of us. And we so I'm grateful for you, man. I'm grateful for you. I'm grateful for all of y'all to that tune into us. Either listening or watching, man. This is this is a beautiful journey.

We are.

DJ Sir Daniel: Absolutely. I echo J Ray's sentiments. I'm so thankful for you, J Ray, and for our listeners. And we just hope that you stay locked in for the ride, because as. We grow, we hope that you grow as well and that you'll start reaping the benefits of us, our growth as well.

So just keep, stay with us, man. I'm trying to tell you, stay, stay down like four flat tires. Like they used to say back in the nineties,

[00:01:37] Traffic Woes in Metro Atlanta
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Jay Ray: So, Daniel, how's your week been?

DJ Sir Daniel: it has been, it hasn't been bad. Um, you know, except for Atlanta. Metro Atlanta traffic being what it is. Just the other night, I was stuck in traffic for at least two hours. What GPS said was supposed to be a 59 minute ride turned into two hours. And that that's just a fact that that's just something that happens in Metro Atlanta, regardless of it.

It could be a day. It could be a Beautiful sunny day and you can end up stuck in traffic for two hours. It's just that it's just one of those things. One of those things we like to warn people about who insist on moving here that traffic is not for Metro Atlanta traffic is not for the week of or faint of heart.

Just keep that in mind. If you decide that Atlanta is part of your new me new you situation. In 2024.

Jay Ray: Yo. So speaking of, I just read something very recently. 

[00:02:43] Shoutout to Leo and the Phat Girl Chronicles
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Jay Ray: First of all, and shout out to Leo. Leo is in the chat.

DJ Sir Daniel: What up Leo? 

Jay Ray: what's up Leo, the fat girl chronicles y'all that make sure that y'all go over to wherever you're listening to cue points. Also subscribe to the fat girl chronicles. Okay. Cause Leo is dope. And we love what she's doing over there.

So shout out to Leo for hanging out with us tonight. 

[00:03:04] Atlanta: Best Place to Live, But Don't Move Here
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Jay Ray: But, um, I just read something recently, sir, Daniel, that Atlanta was voted like best place to live or one of the best places to live in the country. And

DJ Sir Daniel: of the top 10.

Jay Ray: And immediately after that, somebody was like, yeah, but don't move here though.

So,

DJ Sir Daniel: Please don't, we beg you just let that go. It's a nice place to visit. Come visit, but no, we really, we really are full. The t shirts are true. We're full. How was your week?

Jay Ray: yo, my week has been good. Um, it has been, uh, I'm once again, learning a lot this week. 

[00:03:44] Building an Online Store: A Training Session
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Jay Ray: I'm actually excited because on Sunday I'm hosting a training with my cousins. We're going to talk about. Um, building an online store. And, um, I'm going to talk about, uh, launch cart, which is of course, how we've built our new Q point store.

I want to teach my cousins how to do it. Let's show y'all how to make this coin in 2024. That's what I'm giving. You know what I mean?

DJ Sir Daniel: One thing about Jerry, Jerry is always going to, and another friend of ours, Fonda, the two of y'all, when y'all get together, you are always going to come up with a plan for, for somebody's life. It may turn into just a regular, you know, Hey, how you doing text? And then next thing, you know, I'm getting back to back, um, jewels from the two of them, like, Oh, so this is what you need to do.

And if you leave it there, you can host it there. And then I'm like, wow. Okay. I, you know, sometimes it could be so much that you can't even keep up with it, but it comes from a place of love. And just pure genius from the two of you. So what I would like to peep the people to know though, J Ray is before we go any further, how can they keep involved with QPoints and to, and to make QPoints stand out above the rest with the ratings.

[00:04:59] How to Support QPoints Podcast
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Jay Ray: Yeah, so y'all are already doing the thing and we say this all the time. If you are hearing us say these words, you're already doing the most important thing, and that is watching us or listening to us. So wherever you are, just subscribe. If you want to do us a solid Go ahead and hit that share button.

All of them sites got to share a button to share, share the show with your friends, sharing with your colleagues, sharing with your coworkers, give them something to listen to what a on vacation and you could share the gift of Q points with them. Right? So we would love it if you do that.

And that's absolutely free. Also, you can join our newsletter. If you go to Q points dot com, you can go ahead and sign up for our newsletter. Which that's really exciting. And you can also, if you want to like, you know, do a little bit more, you can, uh, drop us, uh, some coin by buying some products. We have some dope QPoints products in our store, which you can go over to store.

qpoints. com and get up on it. So please do those things. We

DJ Sir Daniel: You heard, you heard the man follow instructions. Do not lose the context. We are, you know, we're, we're a two man show around here. And we need y'all to support us as much as you can and please, by all means, I think it's very good to leave, um, five star reviews, you know, wherever you can give us a review, give us five stars, let us know, let us, but email us privately what you don't like, or if you have whatever kind of comment comments you have that aren't the nicest on air, just let us know in private and we'll look at them and decide whether or not we're going to do something about it.

[00:06:40] Transition
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[00:06:49] Main Topic: Lauryn Hill
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DJ Sir Daniel: Jerry and I have been having this conversation behind the scenes for the longest about have we been giving Lauryn Hill way too much over the past 30, 30 plus years and we're just gonna just have a flat out conversation about Miss Lauryn Hill and her shenanigans.

now Since that clip went viral of Lauren Hill during, um, one of the performances of that very short lived tour. She was at the end. She brought out her mother and her daughters to be on stage with her. And she got very emotional. She was, and she was, um, you know, speaking directly to the audience. And the, the, the part that went viral, that we're all that is stained on our brains now is Lauren Hill saying, Oh, well, they're always saying, well, she's late.

Well, she's late. She's this, she's that she's late a lot. And she said, yo, y'all are lucky. I made it on this stage every night. And of course, you know, that spread like wildfire. And I'm, what I'm going to, what I'm going to do is I'm going, I'm approaching this with empathy or Ms. Hill in the sense that like a lot of the other, especially young black women that we've discussed on this, um, this podcast participate in this business of music, um, have.

run around, have gotten a short end of the stick, um, get disrespected behind the scenes. They get disrespected by their label. They get disrespected by their band mates. Um, they get disrespected by the venue, the sound person, so on and so forth. So being, demanding that people respect you comes along with age and knowing your worth and your value.

And so you, you set standards where you go, you ask for certain things. And I don't think any of us are, um, Denying Lauren, denying, denying Ms. Hill, excuse me, sorry, denying Ms. Hill that respect for her craftsmanship, for her artistry. It's just that there doesn't seem to be a reciprocation. Like, who do we have to be to gain some reciprocity, Ms.

Hill, when it comes to,

Jay Ray: see what you did there.

DJ Sir Daniel: You said you like that to get, you know, I think it's very, it's not that people are making this stuff up, countless people have attended concerts and have sat there for three to five hours waiting for her to appear and then everybody has the same. observation about the songs not sounding the same.

But there just has not, I don't think it's, we don't get like a lot of these young artists do now. We don't get a sense of who she is because, you know, she's from the, from the old school. They don't communicate. With their fans the way that the new school does through social media So she's still a bit a bit of a mystery and it's like when you do come around You know, you kind of shit on us after we paid our money to come see you And you know, we've been sitting here for hours and that's been a complaint for a very long time and she's never addressed it Until that moment and then when she finally addressed it.

It was very I'll shut up. Don't, you know, you'll be okay. Don't worry about that. You should be lucky y'all. You're lucky that you can see me right now.

Jay Ray: Yep. Yep. So what's interesting about her, um, her response or her, what she said was there is, um, I was reading the Che Pope interview that he did and he was heavily involved with the miseducation. I think he was actually credited as a co producer on doo wop, but apparently worked on. A bunch of other stuff and didn't get no credit, right? Um, allegedly, according to, according to Che, right? Um, but one of the things that he identifies, um, was, you know, hey, he saw Lauren at some point later on. I think Chairman Mao asked, you know, hey, did you speak to Lauren after this? And here's his quote. Um, Chairman Mao said, Did you speak to Lauren directly about any of this at any time after you learned that you were not given full credit for your work?

That was a question. Chase said, Only one time, even then, it was more of like a sort of dismissive type of conversation where it was like, We'll figure it out. And I feel like that statement on that stage was also like, A dismissive statement of, you know, for the audience, many audiences over the years that have been disappointed and ultimately disrespected by, um, Miss Hill, not showing up to perform right.

Or showing up really late to perform and people have spent their hard earned money to see her. So I, so. In reading this statement, right, or seeing her make this statement, I love what you said. I think stuff can be two things. I can't imagine what it is like to be a young Black woman at the time. So we're talking about the late 90s.

This is Lauren in her early 20s. To be a young Black woman with this much fire and talent, to be Associated with these men, right? And the men are kind of the in charge ones and you're the little girl, right? Quote unquote, to be kind of in that space. And who knows what she experienced. So. Yeah, I do have empathy for that because we don't know that story.

She hasn't told that story and that's okay. Also, you're still going on stage because people have paid to see you, right? They have given their money to say, I want to see you. At that moment, it is your responsibility to deliver what the people paid for.

So, you know, we. Thank you for coming on stage every night. Maybe she said this and they didn't tape it, but we should have also gotten a thank you for coming to see me and waiting for me to do this because yeah, it's hard for her to get to the stage. Sometimes.

DJ Sir Daniel: Because

Jay Ray: how that's a life be life it that's a whole other statement to be like Not y'all lucky, but thank y'all for rocking with me for 30 for 30 years

DJ Sir Daniel: yeah, I think in general, and I'm going to stray away from the topic just a little bit in general, I've noticed that a lot of us. In this society have a hard time when it comes to apologizing. And when I say, and especially now, if you're a person in the social media, like recently there was that young man that, you know, we've talked about before, but that has a huge platform

Jay Ray: Oh

DJ Sir Daniel: was dogging out Beyonce and then apologized in the same breath. And I was like, that's not an apology. And I think that's just, that's a problem. A lot of people have is that they don't know the correct way to apologize. And it's not something that we do well, acknowledging what we, how we hurt people, um, saying how we can correct what we've.

Um, the misgivings and how we cannot let it happen again, but that would mean too much of a, of us having accountability. And a lot of us don't want that accountability, accountability, depending on your ego, depending on how your mind is set up and structured and what kind of trauma you've dealt with.

Accountability can hurt. You know and it might hurt Apparently might hurt more to you than to the person that you wronged So, you know, who knows maybe she's lashing out. This is her way of getting back For all the times that she's been Um, herded off like cattle and told here, wait in this room, get ready.

And when we call you, y'all are going to come to the stage by this time, sharp. And, um, when we leave here, we're going right back to the hotel room. You can't do anything outside of that. He needs to get into the hotel room because at. 7 o'clock in the morning. We're moving on to the next state. You know, your life, your life is not your own You're not always in control and a lot of times when people feel out of control They take control of the things that they can and her showing up to the show four hours late It's her being it's her taking control and saying, Oh, well, y'all are still here, right?

Oh, you know what time it is. You know what, you know what I give with these bars. You know how I give with the singing. So y'all are going to wait for me. And I think that's the only reason why the bad behavior continues. Is that people still are showing up? I think the moment The moment that that curtain opens if she knows that there's only five people there She probably won't come out period but then that might be You know, that might shift her.

That might shift her wig a little bit and say, oh, well, maybe I do need the people aren't going for anymore. Maybe I do need to straighten up and fly. Right. You know, that's just my. A theory.

Jay Ray: No, no, no, no, I think I think you're on point and I'm curious for the folks in the chat We wanted to for the folks in the chat. What are your thoughts? You know when? Lauren made this statement from that stage and you know, and it was a sentimental moment I mean your mama up there. You got your daughter.

You got your children up there and I'm like Yeah, all of that's beautiful. But what you said though

DJ Sir Daniel: Right.

Jay Ray: You could have let that part out like we could have had a whole different experience So I am curious to know what folks thought and and we wanted to start in this place because We definitely needed to unpack the career of Lauren, which is a crazy kind of ride when you think about It just in terms of the, uh, the, the ups and the downs, like the ups and the downs of the Lauren Hill career, and to think Adrian to think Lauren only has.

Four albums and i'm being generous because unplugged don't really count she has Four albums of recorded output and two of them are with a group One of them is a solo studio album and the second one is like a live thing. So she really only has Three records for real

DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah.

Jay Ray: It's a crazy career,

DJ Sir Daniel: It's a, it's a, and you know, those are the, those, those are the careers that make the, the best, you know, mythology, the best stories that, you know, the things that we continue to talk about, they create this legendary persona and it adds to that, to when you show up. And people still want to come out and see you because of the legend that is, and you know, the fact that she did this and they did that.

And, um, you know, I just remember the first time I ever saw Lauryn Hill was on Ryan's Hope. No, not Ryan's Hope, All My Children. It was on All My Children. And she appeared, she was a child after. And she, and of course, then we saw her later on in, you know, um, on Showtime at the Apollo, you know, during the amateur night, and then we saw her sister act.

So we noticed that she, we knew that she was multi talented from the get go. She was just this kid and, but she was this kid with a lot of talent. And apparently there was, you know, New Jersey, of course, is a hotspot for talent because of course, you've got Queen Latifah, Naughty by Nature, that whole, that whole, yes, I really aged myself by St.

Ryan's Cove, um, that whole, you know, that whole, um, melting pot of artists that was, you know, bubbling and finally, you know, she got, I remember seeing, was it vocab? I think it was the vocab video. And not really being blown away by all the material because I just, but I was blown away by her and their energy because at this point when they finally came on the scene, Digable Planets had already made their mark and got their Grammys and were like onto their second album by the time the Fugees came along.

Jay Ray: hmm.

DJ Sir Daniel: it was like, Oh, okay. So we got another. Crew, you know, with two, two male MCs and one female. Okay. This is cool. We've seen that work. It could work. And so here they come along, maybe they're going to be grittier. We don't know what kind of vibe they're going to give what they're bringing, but they come along and, and the album honestly flops 

that first, that first album flop big time, you know, we got Vogue, we got, um, vocab and we got, um, Mona Lisa, dah, what's the name of that

Jay Ray: Uh, that song is called, um, uh, Oh shoot. Oh my gosh.

DJ Sir Daniel: Y'all know what we're talking about,

Jay Ray: Yes. Um.

DJ Sir Daniel: we got that, and that got them a little buzz, right? And which is fine. And then, of course, you know, Lauren does what a lot of, um, what becomes a formula. For a lot of female emcees later on is that she pops up on features I remember being blown away by her on the big cat and the ladies 12 inch of the late the ladies and she she ate that rhyme when she was first You know, cause she was dead last.

So that means nappy 

heads. Thank 

Jay Ray: heads. 

DJ Sir Daniel: That was the name of the song. So, yeah, so it was like, okay, cool. The album weren't really all of that, but they're dope. We know that they're dope and we know that they've got the skills and she definitely stood out. She was clearly stood out.

Jay Ray: No, you, I highlighted the, the times that I re the, the time that I really saw her as a star, I remember in between, um, the album. So. Blended on reality was the record it had ran its course and thank you so much keys I'm glad you said the nappy heads remix because the one that was on the record was not what they did at the video It was the 90s y'all

DJ Sir Daniel: shout out to Salam

Jay Ray: Salaam Remy Salaam Remy all day.

Okay,

DJ Sir Daniel: That's really who they need to credit for

Jay Ray: Ashae right so In between. So as the record winds down, um, one, that vocab remix was crazy. I was like the whole intro. I was like, okay, this is the bag that vocab remix. I'm like, oh, this is it. And Lauren was shining on that joint. She came out first and it was like, okay, I see what this, this woman is given.

And then that big cap remix and immediately. From a wordplay standpoint, she was just a smart rapper

DJ Sir Daniel: she was a nice.

Jay Ray: she was the nicest of the dudes that she was with too. And I think sometimes when a rapper is smart, it comes across as I'm just like a smart rapper, but Lauren was like, she has swag to it. So it was like, she was just smart with wordplay and was just.

Way better than the people that she was standing besides right as an emcee. Um, so I was floored I remember when um The first time I heard fuji la as we kind of led into the score one It was leaps and bounds. This is only two years after right their debut

DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah,

Jay Ray: leaps and bounds better Then their debut single album, I'm like, Oh yeah, this right here is the move.

And of course, they was like, Lauren had done the sister act thing. So then we knew she could sing, right? So it's like, Oh, she could sing too. And she sings and she acts. And they was like, okay, put her on the hook too. It was a rap.

DJ Sir Daniel: it was, you know, that the score was a very cinematic album. Even the album cover mimics, um, the Godfather movie posters. So it, it was really a very larger than life moment. I remember that album being everywhere and whenever they would end up on tours, I remember it was the smoking grooves tour and it came to the variety playhouse in little five points.

I want to say, and Goody Mob was on a tour with them. It was just a moment because they were grungy. 

[00:25:36] The Impact of 'Killing Me Softly' and the Changing Crowd
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DJ Sir Daniel: It brought out all the backpackers,

Jay Ray: Mhm.

DJ Sir Daniel: I noticed it brought, they brought out, um, the white kids. the college kids, the Asians, everybody, it was like, Oh, you know, you start to notice that this crowd is getting a little bit more diverse.

And I think that especially happened after the killing me softly hit radio and, you know, hit radio and made its impact there. And so of course, the crowd changed. And they, they started getting more appeal. And so next thing you know, they're on these big festival tours. 

[00:26:12] The Rise of the Fugees and Their Hard Work
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DJ Sir Daniel: So they got it out the mud as a group.

The Fuji's got it out the mud. They, they, they grind, they grinded real hard and they, they performed, they perfected their craft prize. And, and, and, uh, Wyclef are very smart. They knew what they need to play her up.

Jay Ray: Yep.

DJ Sir Daniel: They knew to play her up. They needed to do those freestyle. Um, where one is standing on the other side of the stage and they knew how to do all that.

And so they made it work for them. And, you know, there was a fun summer, summer of 95 and then 96. It was all about the Fugees and. And that, and then we kind of just was like, okay, when the record played us, ran its course, then we were all like, okay, what's next? 

[00:26:58] The Solo Journey Begins and the Strains Behind the Scenes
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DJ Sir Daniel: And of course, everybody starts talking that solo

Jay Ray: everybody's going solo now. And, and of course, what we didn't know behind the scenes that we learned much later is, um, about the relationship, you know, that Lauren had with, you know, Wyclef.

DJ Sir Daniel: Uh huh.

Jay Ray: However, that played out, I ain't going to re ash it. And, but, how that also put a strain on the music, right?

And, you have this woman who clearly has figured out that, oh shoot. I shine bright. I shine brightly, right? Um, and I can step out on my own and I can do something. And I think I remember reading, uh, an interview because there's been so many interviews, uh, post miseducation where it was talking about the fact that Lauren was very committed to winning.

Right. So if they were going to do solo joints, she wanted to win that whole thing. And, um, I was unprepared. 

[00:28:10] The Unexpected Impact of 'The Miseducation'
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Jay Ray: I'm curious to know your thoughts, Sir Dayu. I was unprepared for the miseducation and how game changing it would be. I remember when I first got wind of Lost Ones. And I was like, okay, there's, this is real.

This is a thing that's happening. What's this album going to be? So I'm curious, like when you first discovered or heard about the Miseducation coming, what was your thought?

DJ Sir Daniel: So before I get to that, I, we got to acknowledge that both Wyclef and prize actually had some burners on their hands before the miseducation came out. Like we were rocking like those summers in between the score. And the miss education, we had prize with ghetto superstar and him and ODB. And then of course, Wyclef's carnival was a game changer also.

So we got to give, give them props for that. They actually, they impacted radio real hard on their own with those particular, um, with their own solo projects. So, and I think I've, I've told this story before, but. I was interning at a radio station when I first heard Lost Ones, and I was excited. I was excited when I heard Lost Ones, because I'm coming, at that point in my life, I'm coming from the standpoint of Lauren, um, L.

Boogie. The spitter, you know, the firecracker, the one that really, you know, and I'm like, Oh, a whole album of L boogie, a whole album of, you know, her verse on big cap and the ladies I'm thinking, Oh, this is going to be some real, some real true hip hop stuff, because at this point. You know, Kim, Fox, and Eve was on the verge of her impact, but Kim and Fox and Missy had def and Da Brat had definitely changed the landscape of, um, of hip hop.

And then, so I'm thinking, okay, so we're about to get some conscious rhymes, but it's going to be radio ready. It's going to be some jams on there. I'm thinking she's going to have some reggae influenced stuff that might, you know, give us a little one, two. Step in the club and whatnot. So I'm, I've really just set myself up.

It's like I had gotten my mouth ready for that subway stand,

Jay Ray: you know? Right. Right. Mm

DJ Sir Daniel: and I, and then I remember getting the seat, no. Working at HMV record store and hearing the CD and there's all this singing. There's all this, these, these acoustic guitars.

[00:31:16] The Disappointment and Surprise of 'The Miseducation'
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DJ Sir Daniel: And I'm just sitting there like this ain't what I signed up for. And I was completely, I was disappointed. I've told the story publicly. I was very disappointed in the midst on the first run of my. Experiencing the miseducation of Lauryn Hill because I had set myself up for what I thought was going to be a traditional rap record and it was nothing of the sort.

It was definitely her taking artistic Um, artistic, um, license and expanding her palette and expanding her talents, you know, because she's a great, she's a great singer, of course. But I just remember being like, I was skipping, you know, okay, she's singing on that too. And I'm skipping ahead. I'm like, there's gotta be some more raps on here.

There's gotta be some more rhymes. And then the only other thing I heard was the Everything's Everything record where she, but she's singing in the beginning of that, but then she kind of, she eventually raps towards the end of that as well. So I'm just like, huh, I thought I was going to buy it, but not so much.

But I could not, we could not escape the miseducation when it impacted the way it did. And I remember one person telling me, he was like, Um, he was like, don't let, don't ever let anybody hear you say that you're not a fan of this record. Yeah. He was like. I don't think that it won't bode well for you because I guess they saw me as somebody that might have some type of influence.

I was just working at a record store at that time, but he was just like, no, no, no. This album is game changing. And I was just like, I mean, I was what 23 when it came out. I'm still in my rah rah phase. I don't, you know, I'm still getting money. I'm still, you know, turning up in the club and whatnot. I'm ready to turn up, but here we are.

You want, y'all want to light incense and, and pray. And play acoustic guitars and sing about feelings and whatnot. And, you know, and, and your love is in Zion and all this other stuff. All right. She was not, what happened is that she was life, life was moving for her at a faster rate. Then it was for me. She was way more advanced because at that time she was pregnant with her first child.

So life had really gone into overdrive for her where the rest of us was still backpacking and having fun. She was becoming a mother and, um, striking out on her own, making this very life changing album for herself. So I think. For us, especially for, um, um, a young man at that time, just couldn't, me couldn't, I couldn't relate to the album, but, I mean, generate, it was, that was, for women, that was an inter, intergenerational album, and they all could get into it, I just wasn't a part of that program, and so I felt left out.

[00:34:20] MPN Network Mid-Roll
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[00:35:42] The Controversy and Legal Tangle Surrounding 'The Miseducation'
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Jay Ray: You know, for this record, um, I think one of the things that this record is a testament of is the importance of, um, finding your tribe, like finding a tribe of people that you connect with, because what we ultimately learned is that this record, um, Was a collaboration, right? Was a collaboration with a bunch of talented folks that all had the same goals at the time.

So they thought, right. And probably did at the same time. And then things change, you know, when, you know, things get different when money get involved, right.

But. 

DJ Sir Daniel: where have I heard that before? That sounds like a lyric. Huh.

Jay Ray: Um, it's funny how money changes the situation. Didn't that hilarious how that's like the first line.

DJ Sir Daniel: And it really set everything in the motion. It literally did. That's why there's power in the tongue. You got to be very careful about what you say.

Jay Ray: Ah, Shay. So, um, I remember one being instantly, uh, impressed by this record. Um, my impression, um, was solidified the moment I heard X Factor. Like the moment I heard that song, I was like, Oh, ooh, this is where we're going. Okay. I'm in for this. I'm going to go on this ride. Um, and watching her blow up the way it did was inspirational.

So you were, so we were watching Lauren, um, with like 15 band members on stage. Like it was. So many people in the band, right? Watching her with a DJ. It was the first time that I remember having a band and a DJ on stage

DJ Sir Daniel: And 

Jay Ray: because 

DJ Sir Daniel: she had, a hype man.

Jay Ray: she had a hype man too. So she had like a band, she had a DJ and she had a hype man.

So it was like part hip hop, part soul, part funk. Part reggae, like it was all in the mix. 

[00:37:53] The Power of Collaboration and the Impact of Money
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Jay Ray: Her look evolved where it was like high fashion, but it was also Rasta at the same time, it was all of these things in the mix that made it just all work from the image to the, the marketing to the music itself, like the record, you just couldn't.

Front on how good the music was it was just a really good album, right? so I was more surprised Well, okay, I will tell you So I was a i'm a liner notes guy. We grew up in the liner notes era

DJ Sir Daniel: Yes.

Jay Ray: when I did see I do remember having the reaction of Produced arranged and I think it was composed by there was like she did the prince thing Which let me tell you something.

Let me tell you that's a rare thing to see right when you do the prince thing because I was like I know lauren did all of that. I Now I know she was going right. I mean, I know she would get them lyrics together But I did not and I would have expected certainly maybe a producer credit or a co producer on or co produced by but it was like no produced arranged composed like that did I remember having that cassette and being like, Oh, that's something that I did not see coming.

And then to learn, so the record comes out in the summer of 98 by the fall, by the end of the year. So we're actually coming up on the anniversary of this announcement where, you know, Newark files a lawsuit and says, we didn't get. Our credit on this album, and I will say. That instantly made sense to me. She ended up settling the lawsuit. Y'all there's a great LA times article, by the way, we'll include it in the description, but there's a great LA times article from December 19th of 1998, which is called the legal tangle. Of the miseducation, right? And it talks about the fact that, um, I'm going to read the quote from it.

The musicians collectively known as Newark are suing Hill and her label in U. S. District Court in Newark, New Jersey, claiming they deserve a share of songwriting or production credit on 13 of the 14 songs. And of course, a sizable chunk of the profits generated by the Which At that point, y'all, I hit the mic at that point Mike, five months had sold 2.

4 million copies.

DJ Sir Daniel: Wow.

Jay Ray: a lot. That is physical product being sold.

DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah, exactly. At that time, those were actual CDs, records and cassettes folks that were being sold and had all of that information on there, but imagine. You working tireless, tirelessly on this album with this woman and I'm sure when they were in the, you know, in the trenches, making the album and production, you know, you become a family because that's a, that's a lot of synergy at work.

You spend a lot of time with each other. You become a family. And then after that, you'll be like, wait a minute. My name isn't on the, but I wrote and I played, wait a minute. It's like you, it's almost like she says She sat there behind the drum with one of those, um, those old fashioned. She had the harmonica attached to her mouth Um, hitting the, hitting the snare Pounding the bass at the same time and playing keyboards and she's saying that oh, it was just all me I did all of this by myself And so I can only imagine being that band of composers and musicians and finding out that you really, you literally got jerked by probably somebody that you thought was one of the good guys in this business.

Jay Ray: And, and here is the Testament, right? So hopefully. Artists today, listening to this show. This is the reminder that please make sure that you do your one, know what your job is before you walk in the door, right? If you going in to do some stuff, okay. What's my role on this. thing and have that in writing.

And then to get them split sheets together. So at least if you don't get your producer credit, you still getting your publishing. Okay. Because I'm on that writing thing, but the goal is to get both. Um, I'm going to read this quote real quick to that point, sir. Daniel. Um, Che talked about Che Pope talked about in this Red Bull, um, interview here was his quote, just about what you said, he said, I was emotional about the project because obviously I had spent a year and a half of my life.

Every day in the studio, countless hours on end working on this album. I think I was a little too close to it. We were taken advantage of business wide.

DJ Sir Daniel: I mean, a tale as old as Father Tom himself is, you know, we, we talked about that ad nauseam on this podcast about young people just getting taken advantage of in this business. And yes, it is a business. I'll never forget one of the, the last time that I've spent 

Jay Ray: I know what you're about to say.

DJ Sir Daniel: see her. I was with my actually what my best friend Daryl took me to the one music fest and this was that this is when it was at the Lakewood Fairgrounds and Lauren Hill was the, um, was the headliner for that particular night for that particular day. And oh, and so I had told him I had saw I saw her earlier that summer at Afropunk and she she pulled she played in our faces that night.

She didn't show up to the stage until like nine o'clock and Afropunk was outside at a park. So of course at a park you have to have a cut off time and there's no no room for when they cut off the arm. They will cut the lights off if you go over. And that happened literally in the middle of her set, the lights got cut off.

And I just remember watching her and just her, her behavior was very chaotic on stage. She kept barking at the band. And, you know, doing these, these hand motions of, of hurry this up, slow that down, speed it up louder, louder, back off, back off. And it just, it felt so chaotic and, and felt rushed and unrehearsed.

And I was like, this is not the business. And I said, Hmm, I don't think I'm good on Lauren at Afro punk. Then when my friend surprised me with the tickets and said, let, you know, we're going to see everybody. I was excited that I saw she was the headline. And I was like, listen, I, I'm, I don't want you to get your hopes up too high.

Cause he was amped. Darryl was pumped. He was like, I can't wait to see Lauren. I can't wait to hear Lost Ones and X Factor. I was like, it's not gonna be what you think it is. It's not gonna be what you think it is. It's not gonna sound like the album. It's um, she's gonna be very chaotic and I did the, I showed him the hand motions and whatnot and when he witnessed it in real time, he couldn't, he was stunned.

He was like, why is she acting like this? 

Jay Ray: I am wondering, because I remember, I don't know how much of this stuff is true, but I remember reading, um, another article at some point in the last 20 years, which talked about, um, Miss Hills level of creativity, right?

How she is always kind of creating. Lauren probably has endless songs that she has written because she's always creating. She's always making. And I'm wondering if there are two things that are at play. One is the control. The need to, um, be in control of the space, be in control of the stage. And here's what being in control of the stage looks like.

Um, now having been around, uh, a lot of musicians, you know, having worked with a bunch of folk, you know what I'm saying? Um, I see those stage movements and all of that stuff as like, okay, baby, they can't follow. All of that like that's a lot there's a volume thing. There is a Speed up. There's a slow down.

There's too many requests, you know what I mean? and And who are we talking to right? So I I was looking at that when I first saw it as like Okay, does she, maybe she doesn't understand like calls, maybe she doesn't understand like band leadership and being able to know what all these things mean. So one, I think is there is a control thing, but the other thing I'm wondering if it's, if it's true, it's just kind of her artistic genius just kind of showing up in those moments, right?

If you're a person who's on stage and you're trying, you're in the moment, you want to hear it like you hear it in your head. And. That's great, but you can't do that, right? You can't do that all the time unless going back to the point that you just made You and the band are like one group where it's like Okay, where the band is able to say like I know what's going to happen here because she's going to get moved.

She's going to start moving. Let's watch her move because there we've seen plenty of musicians do that. I'm thinking of Kipper. Kipper was in the chat earlier and he had just walked into the club. There's video of this on his TikTok. He wasn't performing with that band. He didn't, you know, but he was invited up on stage and immediately was able to call what needed to happen.

And the band followed him

DJ Sir Daniel: Yes.

Jay Ray: to a T was like, boom, you know, the top boom cut, you know what I'm saying? All of them, all of the things you need to do when you have a professional band working with you. So. I do wonder if there is a control thing, I have a couple of quotes I want to bring in. One is from Kipper. Um, he says, I consider myself a musician, which puts me on equal footing with everyone else on stage. It's a team. Right. So there you go. When you have that. And I, and I love the way you put that, sir. Daniel is there are clearly things that miss Hill is working through that we saw in the unplug thing.

Right. Just kind of uncover. Right. There are clearly things that she is working through and continuing to work through. Um, and that makes for kind of this stage experience. Um, and. I do have, I do have empathy for that. I can love you from over there. I'm not buying a ticket to a Lauren Hill show.

DJ Sir Daniel: Thank you.

Jay Ray: I can love you from over from over here where I'm at with my, with my 125 in my pocket. I can love you for that, you know, from over here and that's okay. Um, so I do want to, um, as we, okay. 

[00:49:58] The Experience of Listening to 'The Miseducation' in 2023
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Jay Ray: So as we think about the miseducation in 2023, so I'm curious, sir, Daniel. What are your thoughts on the miseducation in 2023?

DJ Sir Daniel: As a body of work, um, I think it's, it's beautiful. It's still very beautiful. Um, I love the sequencing. I've grown to love the sequencing of that album. Um, you know, the, the, the nuances, the kids in the classroom, all of that, all of that makes for a classic album. It is truly, it's truly a classic. It is definitely a classic.

Um, X factor, as you mentioned is. Is a bonafide R& B classic song that will forever live in as long as this terrestrial radio will always be in somebody's quiet storm, uh, repertoire it's, it's going to live on forever. Um, and yeah, I think it's definitely a, it's definitely a. Benchmark for, I think, specifically for women,

Jay Ray: Mm hmm.

DJ Sir Daniel: black women specifically, I think it, um, it's one of those canons that black women can look upon and see themselves.

And so that gives it importance. It does give itself that lens to its importance to the community as a whole, because a lot of black women are able to see themselves and to, um, you hopefully work out whatever they're going through with the help of that album or, you know, and feel them, feel them that they've been seen and heard.

And so that lends to the importance of that album. Just like that album is to black women is just as important to say essence magazine. I'll put it like that. And yes, and that's, and that's, and I'm giving it a lot, but it's true. There are a lot of bodies of work.

Jay Ray: Yeah. Yeah.

DJ Sir Daniel: of, you know, since 19, since the album came out, they'll do those types of things until we saw, you know, Beyonce gave it to, to black women again in the form of lemonade and, um, you know, a lot of her work since then.

So. I think that's why it holds so much credence and so much value in the community. Um, so yeah. So, and then for me listening to it with my grown ears, what I, what I love about it is that it has so much hip hop sensibility. If I had the patience back then I would have been able to hear it immediately.

Especially when, um, songs like, um. Now I know the duet with her and Lauren and Mary J. Blige. I used to love him. And so that, the fact that that samples, that's a Wu Tang sample, is so dope, you know, and it gives it that hip hop sensibility and, which is woven into the whole project. So, I appreciate it now, and I think that we do not need I think I've come to the, to the conclusion at my big age that I'm okay, not receiving another Lauren Hill album and I'm okay, not receiving another Fuji's album.

I think sometimes those things are just source, gave them what was supposed to happen. And that was supposed to be it. Luckily for her, she's been able to sustain her life and her family. With with that one album and that's probably why it was so success so successful Because it was supposed to sustain them from here on out and I'm okay with that and I'm hoping that she Grows to find peace in that as well And I'm hoping that she is exploring her her traumas and at some point is able to step back And re examine, you know, the things that have been done, re examine her treatment of the audiences, re examine her treatment of Um, the musicians and it's so funny to me, the, the miseducation of Lauryn Hill, a lot of it, the stories that are told are from the standpoint of somebody being mistreated.

Jay Ray: Yeah,

DJ Sir Daniel: And it's like, okay, you went from being the one mistreated

[00:54:35] The Controversial Behavior of Lauryn Hill
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Jay Ray: too

DJ Sir Daniel: to doing a lot of the mistreating. So

Jay Ray: Yeah,

DJ Sir Daniel: to get off the field on y'all right now, but Hey, there's something to be said for that.

Jay Ray: absolutely. No, I wholeheartedly agree with everything that you said. I want to bring in a quote so Carlton said, um, it's a strong and classic project. No skips at all. Um, it's interesting when I was preparing for the show.

Um, I went back and I listened with fresh ears, you know, um, because I don't play the miseducation backwards and forwards anymore, right? You know, it was, I just don't do that. So I really enjoyed it. You know what I'm saying? I really, really enjoyed it. And I'm like, yeah, so the record still holds up. It still sounds fresh today.

If a, um, MC, a woman or a man dropped a project like that today, it was still hit. You know what I mean? It's well produced, lyrically solid, um, to your point, you said it perfectly about the way hip hop is just interwoven into the whole thing, um, is masterful, right? So you get all of these samples layered with the, um, organic sound of the instruments, um, It is an inspirational record to listen to.

Uh, and I am also with you. I am past the point of needing a new Lauryn Hill album, because here's what I know. Um, the Miss Hill is not, we all evolved. She's just not the same. Right?

DJ Sir Daniel: Right.

Jay Ray: It's not gonna be, it might be dope. It might be dope. I don't know. So I don't need it. Um, I'm okay. Also, I mean, we have to be okay with not getting a new Fuji's record at this point.

Like it is what it is. Um, let's go and play the score. Yeah, we can go and play the

score. Yep. Yeah. 

DJ Sir Daniel: So

Jay Ray: Prize will be in, in prison for a number of years. I don't know how And, um, You know, we got the score. We got the miseducation. Let's rock with it. I, I, I, I'm okay with it. I will say, um, I do think there is Massage Noir woven into the way we talk about Lauryn Hill because we, we know difficult men who are musicians.

It's like, We, we lived in the era of Prince, right? We lived in the era of difficult. Musicians, right? Um, and I think Lauren is in that, in that line of like, she is who she is. She is now. Okay. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I see. I know what you're doing, but hold on. Here's where I'm going. Here's where I'm going. I think

DJ Sir Daniel: Okay.

Jay Ray: when I, what I'm, what I'm really referring to is her as an artist, not necessarily her as a musician, right? She is a talented artist who is creative, who is talented and confident in what she does and what she brings to the table and There's the fact of the matter is there's just plenty of there's plenty of dudes out there that are like that are difficult and hard That are less talented than her.

You know what i'm saying? And they And we we we let we let them be that you know what i'm saying? Um now Listen people can tell their personal stories about their experiences with lauren hill all day. That is your experience with lauren hill um but I do think as we tell some of these stories, um, just make sure that she's not doing something that somebody else ain't due to, you know what I mean,

DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah, I get it. I, you know, I offer a little bit of pushback on the statement about yes, I agree. Some of these dudes are awful. A lot of we've met some of them. Some of them are ridiculous. They are awful human beings. And a lot of them are being prosecuted right now.

Jay Ray: I

DJ Sir Daniel: done a lot of they've done a lot of terrible things that are coming.

So the light. So that's that. Now, the only I draw the line, because I think Miss Hill has positioned herself to be you. Uh, a one woman Island when in fact, okay, yes, Prince's Prince could have been a diva and all of that, but Prince could have gotten, could have gotten in that studio and cranked out 20 albums because he could have played all of the albums, all of the, um, the, the, the instruments on his own, he could have composed everything and he could have produced it all and mastered it on his own and put it out for all of us to consume.

We did not get that from Miss Hill. And again, I go back to the thing about you just, you can't go around mistreating people. There's a whole community of musicians that will not touch her with a 10 foot pole. And I don't think it has anything to do with. A massage Noir, uh, you know, or any kind of just disliking her because she's a woman.

I'm certain there's a lot of people who would give their left nut to work with her. You know what I'm saying? Still work with her as a musician because she's, she's that impactful or she has had that much impact on the, the, the culture, but the, the, the, the reputation is outweighing the good. It's, it's the integrity.

Thank you, Kipper. It's the integrity. I think if a musician had a chance to say, okay, you've got to, uh, you got to make a decision, do you want to work with Beyonce or do you want to work with Lauren on her next, um, tour nine times out of 10, I'm going over there to work with, with Beyonce. And not to say that Beyonce is beyond reproach.

I'm sure that there's probably things that we may find out. Five, 10 years from now about her, you know, because nobody's infallible. We're all human and we're going to all, you know, we're going to be nasty at times, but as far as. Needing musicians, needing help to create the art. I think she kind of shot herself in the foot in that respect.

Jay Ray: know what, I don't, I don't disagree. I feel like it is really. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know what the plan was ultimately. Um, but you know, we still have, we still have a great two. We still have one great record from Lori. I was about to say two cause no, the unplugged was no, y'all that was no, I listened to like three of those songs and I was like, yeah, man, there we go.

That's the thing. But, um, we still got the miseducation to like, listen to and enjoy. And, um, yeah. So. That's our unpacking of Miss Lauren Hill,

DJ Sir Daniel: Miss Hill, Miss Hill.

Jay Ray: Miss Thing, Miss Thing, Miss Thing,

DJ Sir Daniel: it right. 

Jay Ray: Um,

DJ Sir Daniel: to.

Jay Ray: yeah, what are your thoughts, y'all? Let us know, um, for those, uh, in the descriptions, wherever you are. Um, let us know your thoughts on Miss Hill, um, and what we see as the future. I definitely see her continuing to be a touring artist as much as she will.

Because I mean, she canceled this last tour. Um, you know,

DJ Sir Daniel: It is what it is. We, we still embrace her. 

[01:03:13] The Future of Lauryn Hill and Her Legacy
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DJ Sir Daniel: As a community, we still embrace her. She's just, now she's becoming that, that auntie that comes around during the holidays that You know, X a little too good for everybody else,

Jay Ray: Her fur coat.

DJ Sir Daniel: her fur coat, you know,

Jay Ray: What's

DJ Sir Daniel: her, and her fascinator, her fur coat and a fascinator on top, you know, on her head.

So, but no, we still, we still love Mattel. We still embrace her. I just think it was just time to have that conversation like, okay, y'all let's, let's just have some real conversations about what's the, the, the heft that we put behind this album. But listen.

Jay Ray: Real quick, real quick. I do want to, to that point, I think I have more questions for the audience who goes like people who pay money.

DJ Sir Daniel: Mm

Jay Ray: I have questions. I have questions for people who pay money to see Miss Hill.

DJ Sir Daniel: Who's still the part of that? I think part of that is it's almost like it's it's like I have to see it for myself. And I think we're I think we've become a society like that, you know, because of social media and whatnot. And the things that we've seen on we we're wired now for ridiculousness. And we have a higher we have a lower Yeah.

A higher threshold now for ridiculousness and we want to witness it. And we want to see, we want to see a viral moment in person. And so, and then there's probably people who think, okay, well, I know that happened with y'all, but it's not going to happen with me. 

Jay Ray: me. and Miss Hit. She gonna act Right. at my 

DJ Sir Daniel: She's going to act right at my show, and she's going to look at, she's going to see me in the audience, and she's going to, you know, throw down her handkerchief at me at the end of the show, and I'm going to have that as a keepsake.

So, I don't know about that. So, I think that's part of it. That's just my theory as to why people still indulge her behavior and her antics.

Jay Ray: Get it. Listen, I love it. You like it. I love it. I know I'm not swiping nothing.

DJ Sir Daniel: At all. I'm not putting it on Karna. I'm not doing none of that stuff. I'm not. I'll just watch the clips online and then we'll talk about it on cue points later on.

Jay Ray: Yo, we have been on for a minute. Yo, this is great.

[01:05:49] Closing
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DJ Sir Daniel: For sure. It's like, cause it's a, it's a meaty conversation that we just had to have. We had to have an honest moment with our, with ourselves and with the audience about our feelings around Laura Hill. And there's just some things that we just got to let go. Now, what we won't let go of. Is you listener.

Um, we want you to keep coming back. 

Jay Ray: So to keep up with Q points, um, hit subscribe. Uh, if they have a notification bell hit that too, so you could get notified when we have new shows, share the show with your friends, um, send it to Lauryn Hill fans that, you know, you know,

DJ Sir Daniel: Please 

Jay Ray: ask them to chime in on, uh, what we had to say.

DJ Sir Daniel: real quick. What a Lauryn Hill stands called. Um,

Jay Ray: stands called? The L boogies. That's not a catchy name. What's.

DJ Sir Daniel: let's, I don't know. 

if you, if you think, what are they called? Tell us in the chat, the Hilltop Hustlers. I don't know.

Jay Ray: That'd be hilarious. But listen, um, send it to your friends, let them know about QPoints. Um, sign up for our newsletter, um, visit our website, QPoints. com. Sign up for that. That would be amazing. Um, and, uh, you can shop our store at store. qpoints. com.

DJ Sir Daniel: Shout out to Carlton for the win. Carlton says that they should, Lauryn Hill stands are called the Miss Educators. I 

love that. 

Jay Ray: there we go.

DJ Sir Daniel: That's it. Thank you, Carlton. Thank you for that one. Appreciate it. So listen, J Ray, what do I always say?

In this life, you have an opportunity. You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play. I am DJ Sir Daniel,

Jay Ray: I am J ray y'all.

DJ Sir Daniel: and this has been Q Points Podcast, dropping the needle on black music history. We'll see you on the next go round.

Jay Ray: Peace 

[01:07:47] Closing Theme
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