In this episode of Queue Points, DJ Sir Daniel and Jay Ray dive deep into the world of ghostwriting in hip hop with “Ghosts in the Shadows: Ghostwriting and the Hip Hop Ecosystem.” Discover the hidden influence of ghostwriters on legendary tracks by artists like Diddy, Queen Latifah, and Roxanne Shanté. Learn about the untold contributions of unsung heroes like Mad Skillz and Jadakiss, and how their work has shaped some of hip hop’s most iconic songs. From the legacy of Grandmaster Caz’s rhymes in “Rapper’s Delight” to Apache’s alleged surprising role in “Just Another Day” and “Ladies First,” we uncover the complex stories behind the verses you know and love.
Topics: #Ghostwriters #HipHop #Rappers #BlackPodcasters #BlackMusic #MusicPodcast
Links To Content Referenced This Episode
- Free Songwriter Split Sheet Agreement Template with Example (Songtrust)
- The Art and Business of Songwriting (Guest: Brian Patrick Davis)
- Remy Addresses Females With Ghostwriters!!! Does It Really Matter???
- Mad Skillz’ “Ghostwriter” Could Really Be One Of The Ballsiest Tracks Of All Time - Above Average Hip-Hop
- Ghostwriter Mad Skillz Interview About Rappers Not Writing Lyrics - XXL
- 9 takeaways from Mad Skillz’s episode of “Drink Champs”
- The Notorious B.I.G. feat. Mase & Puff Daddy - Mo Money Mo Problems
- Puff Daddy [feat. The Notorious B.I.G. & Busta Rhymes] - Victory
- Puff Daddy & The Family - Seniorita
- Will Smith - Lost & Found
- P. Diddy [feat. Usher & Loon] - I Need A Girl Part 1
- Apache - Gangsta Bitch
- Queen Latifah - Ladies First
- Queen Latifah - Just Another Day
- Roxanne Shanté - Big Mama
- The Sugarhill Gang - Rapper's Delight
- Ghostwriters Revealed??? | Future Producers
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[00:00:00] Intro Theme
[00:00:16] Introduction and Spooky Conversation
DJ Sir Daniel: Greetings and welcome back to another episode of Queue Points podcast. I'm DJ Sir Daniel
Jay Ray: and my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III. And, Sir Daniel, we are about to have a spooky conversation.
DJ Sir Daniel: That's right. You know, it's that time of year and the phantoms and ghouls are hiding out and the ghost writers are hanging out as well. That's right. Ghost writing.
[00:00:43] The Origins of Ghostwriting in Hip Hop
DJ Sir Daniel: Ghost writing is a recurring topic in hip hop circles, Jay Ray. And I have a theory. As to why you want to hear it.
Jay Ray: yes. Let's hear your theory first.
DJ Sir Daniel: All right. So check it. The early days of hip hop were not built on commercial success, right?
In other words, album sales.
Jay Ray: Yes.
DJ Sir Daniel: MCs got the notion to pick up the mic and start battling each other, it was about showmanship. It was about crowd control.
Jay Ray: Mm hmm.
DJ Sir Daniel: Um, and building your reputation around the way, around the hood as like the best party, rocking MC ever.
And at that time, the only way you could garner that type of respect was to write your own rhymes.
And so the forefathers and foremothers were not educated on the ways of the business of music and that songs often have co creators that was not their, their goal. They didn't know nothing about that. So it was just all about who could rock the party the best and come up with their own rhymes. And that's where, that's what fuels this idea of if you're not writing your own rhymes, you're not a real MC.
Jay Ray: You know, you're absolutely right. Um, and for, for, for the longest time, hip hop was kind of considered a man's game too. And, you know, men, it's all about competition, right? of that idea of writing your own rhymes is also who's the best MC. It becomes like a whole thing. so you're absolutely correct.
Um, but what's really interesting about. idea is from the inception of hip hop as a commercial entity.
DJ Sir Daniel: Yep.
Jay Ray: There have always been always y'all other writers and creators on songs. So the most famous example, and this is at the very beginning,
DJ Sir Daniel: Yep.
Jay Ray: I'm going to read the lyric quote, check it out on the and. The O V A and the rest is F L Y Kaz. it's a Grandmaster Kaz line. Famously, as the story goes, there's a missing notebook somewhere. of a sudden this Kaz line ended up in Rapper's Delight. This is the first official hip hop commercial hit, right? So at the very beginning, now Kaz was an unwilling ghost writer, right?
DJ Sir Daniel: Right. Be clear.
Jay Ray: no check off of, off of writing this rhyme, right? He only knew that this happened because the song came out. so at the very beginning, there was always kind of this idea of. No, you just need to have a clever rhyme and whoever is going to make the best one of that, you get to have that joint on the song and somebody else can say it.
DJ Sir Daniel: That's right. And you know, you made a great point.
[00:04:00] Women in Hip Hop and Ghostwriting
DJ Sir Daniel: You brought up the idea of manhood and being able to flex your manhood, uh, on the mic and that, you know, creates another dichotomy within hip hop because of course men weren't the only ones rapping, you know, women came along and we're doing their thing.
Um, a lot of times. A lot more vicious on the mic. And of course, you know, we all know the, the mythology and the folklore of Roxanne Shantae being this young dynamo, 12, 13 years old, taking out the neighborhood. Emcees one by one battling one by one, and she garnered that reputation so soon. She became
Jay Ray: Real talk before, as we get into that too, I think it's also important to note in what you just said, battle rapping and writing a song are different things and rappers talk about that. So Shantae is an absolute beast. Let's be really clear.
DJ Sir Daniel: be clear.
Jay Ray: But battle rap and writing a song are two different kinds of skillsets.
So that's when
DJ Sir Daniel: That's correct. That's correct.
[00:05:11] Roxanne Shantae's Improvised Genius
DJ Sir Daniel: And she's been, she's gone on the record as saying that being in the studio was not her favorite thing. She was dead. She definitely came from the era of being live on stage, being live in front of people and improvising on the spot. Her and Biz Markie, you know, that song, um, you crew was completely improvised, was completely improvised.
Um, the, uh, her, a lot of her early singles were completely improvised, like queen of rocks. And even her answer to the rock to Roxanne, Roxanne was improvised. They, and it was later transcribed and she even had to rerecord her verses because they were off the top of her head. So with that in mind, as she's growing in this.
Industry, the industry now of, um, music business of the recording industry. And she's coming upon, um, releasing her second album. You know, things have changed. The landscape has changed. We're in the early nineties. And, um, as the story goes, you know, there was a celebration for women in hip hop called, um, sisters in the name of rap.
Which was the very first pay per view rap, um, it wasn't the first, it was Rap Mania came first and then Sisters in the Name of Rap. It's supposed to be all women in rap, um, pay per view event. I was so excited, my mother was not giving up that 9. 99 or whatever it was to pay to see.
Jay Ray: for view.
DJ Sir Daniel: Hey preview, baby. So she was not willing to do that.
So I was watching it and listening to it on scrambled. I can, I can hear it, but I couldn't see it cause it was scrambled. You y'all, y'all come on. Y'all
feel me. You know, if you old enough, you remember how that was. So anyway, as the, the, the legend goes, um, shiny was seeing how all of these women were behaving towards her.
We're acting like they were better than, and she was like, Hmm. You know, I, I gave birth to all of the, these MCs, you know, I mothered these, these girls, you know, to, to, to, to, to coin a phrase, I mothered all of y'all. And so that sparked this moment between her Chante versus everybody. And at that time she was working.
Directly with, uh, uh, another, um, legend by the name of granddaddy, IU, who was also her label mate, uh, a juice crew member, and they've gotten that studio and produced probably one of the most scathing disc records ever. And we've talked about it on this show. Called big mama and granddaddy. I, you is credited with writing this most vicious, this record.
He wrote it like, I'm pretty certain they, they, you know, ideas were bouncing off the walls and, you know, he was feeding off of her energy and, you know, the, the, the recalling the stories being backstage, like, This one wants a better dressing room. I gave birth to all of them MCs and that becomes a line in the record.
But granddaddy, I, you, as a man has written this verse, this, this record for this woman.
Jay Ray: Yes.
DJ Sir Daniel: you see a lot of that happening in hip hop where men are penning rhymes for women, Herbie most famously has written a lot of these records for salt and pepper and so on and so on. And so it's just, I think it's just amazing that in this art called hip hop, uh, where, you know, male bravado is, is King and is, is put, um, center stage all the time that when women come on the mic, a lot of times, They're not, when it comes to the put presenting a record, they're not even allowed to put up, put on, write their own verses.
Like there's a dude in the camp that says, you know what? Let me write this for you. This sounds better, even though I'm pretty certain they had their own ideas and during the session, a lot of these records got written by most of the dudes, probably because they. They Bogart their way into getting that credit and saying, nah, this sounds better say this way.
Jay Ray: Going back to that idea of, you know, the craft of a song, is different, but I do think some of it is, you know, that natural male desire of wanting to have control, especially then, saying, in hip hop, but, um, the idea of.
[00:09:57] The Evolution of Ghostwriting Perception
Jay Ray: The ghost writer, um, is one that I do remember Sir Daniel, and I know you remember this as well being like a, a, a, no, no,
DJ Sir Daniel: A no, no.
Jay Ray: Wanted to be accused of somebody else writing your rhymes, even though in a lot of cases we could tell by certain people's flows that like, sounds like so and so Oh, they're in the same crew together. Oh, that rhyme was probably written by whoever, whoever. And it's funny how we've evolved. I think we've evolved as listeners. Um, but yeah, when I was young, like, it was like, no, like you, you have to write your own rhyme, right?
DJ Sir Daniel: was a no, no. And so many people said it so often that they forgot that we could read the credits and even the ones that were pro professed that they wrote their own rhymes. A lot of other co writers would show up in the, in the line of notes for their rap. So it was like, Okay, sure. You know, you wrote a lot of your stuff, but it's okay.
You have a collaborator. And you know what? Um, this, this topic comes up so much. Remy Ma addressed this topic on ghost of ghost writing on an episode of the math Hoffa show back in 2022. And, and in that moment, she kind of, she deaded it. Now, Remy Ma, she was, she's always been one to say, I write my own rhymes.
Can't nobody say it for me better than me. And she still believes that, but she says, but she says plainly in this interview, that it's really not that important in the grand scheme of things. She said, it's not important. She used the, um, the example of Trina,
Jay Ray: Mm hmm.
DJ Sir Daniel: she said, not Trina. Trina is may not be known for being lyrical, but Trina is Trina in the, in hip hop, Trina is Trina in the music industry.
She's a, she's a goldmine. She is respected. She's an, she's a legend in the game because she is Trina. So with that being said, Trina. In the grand scheme of things, writing your own rhymes is not that important. It's not that important. It's, you know, we're, we're beating a dead horse here by keep, by still continuing to say, and to profess that, you know, I don't have ghost writers as is, as if it's a badge of honor in this day and age.
Jay Ray: Um, we wanted to take some time and talk about three, um. Three confirmed ghost writers, but
that they've written are we really don't know like a lot of these a couple of them. I think we're like pretty sure of but we wanted to just take some time and talk about three folks who you may or may not know and the songs they may or may not have ghost written
DJ Sir Daniel: Hmm.
Jay Ray: the background.
Whoo.
DJ Sir Daniel: They are in the background.
[00:12:57] Spotlight on Ghostwriters: Apache
DJ Sir Daniel: Um, so if I say the name, Anthony Peaks, it probably won't ring a bell. Right? But you definitely know who Apache is.
Jay Ray: Oh, I need a gangster with my gear.
DJ Sir Daniel: Uh, the, a New Jersey native Apache was one of the foundation members of the hip hop collective known as the flavor unit.
Jay Ray: Yes.
DJ Sir Daniel: unit is best known for legends, including Mark 45 King, like him Shabazz naughty by nature.
And of course the princess of the posse queen Latifah. So as part of the crew, Apache honed his skills as an MC and eventually landed his own record deal with Tommy boy records. And so he gifted us with. With his classic and controversial hit gangsta bitch, which, um, J Ray was singing
Jay Ray: hmm.
DJ Sir Daniel: probably unaware of listener is that not only was Apache's queen Latifah's, um, bodyguard and roadie on a tour roadie, was also a writer of two, not one, but two of her most prolific songs.
Just another day. And ladies first, both songs juxtaposed to his hit gangsta bitch are day and night. They Ray in tone and, uh, and subject matter. And it's like, it takes major talent to embody both masculine and feminine energy and rap lyrics, and to make people feel inspired and motivated because. Just Another Day is a, is a wonderful narrative about a day in the life in the hood.
And, but the tone is very soft, is very melodic, and Queen Latifah brings most of that, most her energy into that song.
[00:14:57] Apache's Surprising Influence
DJ Sir Daniel: But I would have, Never guess that, you know, Apache was the one behind that because the tones are so different, but that's what makes you, that's what makes somebody a dope writer and ladies first.
I mean, come on, come on. Would you ever think in a million years that a man wrote that? You collaborated in the writing of that
Jay Ray: absolutely. I would not have, um, but of course, you know, of course, knowing hip hop, not at all surprising, but yeah. Um, Apache is absolutely a legend and another legend.
[00:15:36] Introducing Mad Skillz
Jay Ray: Um, so the name is Donnie Shaquan Lewis. Shaquan,
DJ Sir Daniel: That's
Jay Ray: know him as Mad Skillz, who now goes by Skillz,
DJ Sir Daniel: right,
Jay Ray: primarily, but born in Detroit, um, raised in Fayetteville, North Carolina. This is important raised in Fayetteville, North Carolina, but spent his high school years in Richmond, Virginia. So Skillz this interesting mix of experiences, but was really reared by the school of run DMC as like a rapper. So interesting thing is I think Skillz might have the quintessential nine mid to late nineties flow. In hip hop. Like, I feel like when you go back and you listen to Skillz, you're like, Oh, this is the perfect version of what hip hop in the 1990s sounded like on the East coast. Right.
a perfect encapsulation of cadence and flow, et cetera. I say that to say, because. It's ubiquitous. So when you think about the songs that Skillz is alleged to have ghost written, you're like, Oh, I can't hear that. I can't hear that.
[00:17:00] Skillz's Ghostwriting Legacy
Jay Ray: So Skillz, um, before we get into the two songs, um, that I want to mention, um, Skillz is super famous. Um, for a couple of things, the year in wrap up,
was doing for like many years, but also in 2000, On raucous sidebar, we need to do a raucous, I think show at some point.
DJ Sir Daniel: That was moment for sure.
Jay Ray: a moment in 2000 on raucous.
He released a song called ghost writer. Now he doesn't name any MCs in the actual song, right? But there is an uncensored version where he was live does name names. So here's the names that Skillz mentions that he's written for. Diddy. Of course, he says Puff Daddy, then Foxy Brown, Mace, Will Smith, and Jermaine Dupri. Now, he doesn't say any of this in the song. You can find it in a live version where he mentions this. And this is all alleged. This is a rapper. It's bravado. We don't know if any of this is true, but there are two songs. There are two people in this list that folks are pretty sure, like, no, no, no, no. I definitely wrote those. I need a girl part one. Diddy from his first record and then, uh, lost and found, which was the title track from Will Smith's. I think this is like a 2005 album. Um, and if you listen to both of those records, you can actually hear Skillz as flow in them. What's dope about Skillz is he is highly respected.
He's an industry veteran. There's a new picture of him and Q tip together at the rock and roll hall of fame, uh, induction ceremony for tribe called quest. Um, so there's tons and tons of interviews of him. So I suggest folks go and check it out because this is a man who has literally been able to have a career in hip hop being behind the scenes for most of it, being a ghost writer. Sidebar. He spent some time on the road with Missy Elliot and his skill with Missy was, he was like, yo, Missy was a studio rat. She didn't enjoy doing shows. So she would take me out there because I could remember lyrics. It's like, Missy couldn't remember the lyrics. So Missy would do part of the song and then she would cue it to Skillz to like finish the rap, because he was like, he was like off the top of the dome, he could remember stuff really easy.
So. toured with Missy, um, uh, when she was out doing shows in the like late nineties and early two thousands for like a long time. So for those of you that saw Missy back then, you probably saw with her. Mm hmm.
DJ Sir Daniel: doing it. Um, most recently I saw him with LaKali 47 a couple of years ago on her, um, tour and doing the same thing. So you're absolutely right. Um, there's so much overlap within the industry. So Skillz wrote for Diddy
Jay Ray: Mm
DJ Sir Daniel: and there's another well known rapper who's written a lot for Diddy.
Jay Ray: he? Yes.
[00:20:09] Jadakiss: The Unsung Hero
DJ Sir Daniel: And this gentleman, and it's so funny, like he, I'm talking about Jason Terrence Phillips, but you all know him better as Jada, Jada kiss.
You know, um, Jada kiss is like, and arguably one of the nicest.
when you hear those arguments of top five dead or alive, Jadakiss is always in that argument because, I mean, the man is dead nice. Like that, that Lox versus, um, Dipset
Jay Ray: Mm
DJ Sir Daniel: just I mean, that if that didn't solidify his place on the Mount Rushmore of MCs, I don't know what else will because he completely obliterated that moment with, um, cadence, with breath control, with The punch lines was immaculate.
It's just, you know, the freestyle game is wild, but Jada is not just a freestyle rapper. Jadakiss is nice with that pen
Jay Ray, you know, a lot of the songs that we danced to in the mid nineties, a lot of bad boy hits specifically were penned by your boy Jadakiss,
Jay Ray: Yes.
DJ Sir Daniel: Senorita,
Jay Ray: Yep.
DJ Sir Daniel: um, Diddy's verse on victory.
Um, He's alleged to have co written both biggie and mason's verse on more money more problems Like he's done it all he's done quite a bit for that label and so that makes me understand why like they were Really vehement about getting their money over there because it's like I built this house on the lyrics I wrote.
Jay Ray: Absolutely. Um, I don't want to also underscore to that. This is not the case for Jadakiss, but for some MCs, you know, the industry is different, right? You know what I'm saying? And it gravitates to certain personalities in a different way. And I think it's dope when you have the combination of the two where a person is like, no, no, no, no, no.
I can also write and I can be out front. And I want to be out front. The thing about Skillz is he's always been really clear. He's like, I'm not real. He was not real dead set about being the artist at the center of the stage on the mic. He could do that, but that wasn't like the main thing. Jadakiss on the other hand is interested in that and was good at doing it.
So I also understand that concept as well of, for many folks who write, this is the way that they earn a living.
DJ Sir Daniel: Yes Right
Jay Ray: be able to feel like they could sell it. Right.
[00:23:00] The Ghostwriting Dilemma
Jay Ray: But if you're a talented MC and you can write this idea of ghost, this idea of writing for other people might be a way to make money. Here's the problem though. The problem though, is that short term money, right? Unless your name is on the record and you are actually getting publishing from that song. And in many cases, these ghost writers names are nowhere to be found on a record. You don't know that they ghost wrote it. So if that's true, You may not be getting paid on the back end, right?
So it's a wonderful thing to keep folks working for some folks that need to be. But I also question, um, you know, folks, names not being on the record. And we should also note real quick, as we, we, we wrap that this is not exclusive. To hip hop that famous example we share from uh, uh, Andrea martin who basically ghost wrote show me love right
The they was like yo We'll give you what three hundred dollars or something crazy to be like yo If you could come up with a melody like she's just doing the demo If you could come up with a melody and if you could come up with a verse We're gonna give you some extra money right her name ain't on that song
But she basically ghost wrote that song
DJ Sir Daniel: and sang the reference track and which is,
and I think that's the, um, I guess the, the, the reckoning that's happening now is that demo tracks and reference tracks are leaking. So it's like people are hearing, oh, That's such and such. Oh, so they did write that. They actually sang the reference track for your favorite hit record.
And, um, I want people, I want folks to go back and listen to our episode with Brian Patrick Davis, when he describes what it's like being in the studio and how you can safeguard yourself in these instances of collaboration. And making sure that you do get credit. Now, some, a lot of these people didn't get credit because of the person they were working with, um, just omitted their names because they could, because they, they were scrupulous unscrupulous and had that kind of power, but then there are these other instances where you're collaborating, there needs to be split sheets created in that moment.
And all of that, you can find out in that episode with Brian Patrick Davis on our wonderfully large. Repertoire of shows here at Queue Points podcast, but real quick, as we wrap up, Jay Ray, um, can hip hop music release the stigma of ghostwriting and fully embrace collaboration?
Jay Ray: I think so. I think we are in an interesting moment where, um, folks have. More of an appreciation for the importance of collaboration. So I do think it can, I think what it's going to come down to is can, em, MCs will have to find a new, another dig right now. It can still be a dig. If I might run, if I write my rhymes and you don't write your rhymes, that can be a dig, right?
You know what I'm saying? But that person who doesn't write their rhymes also needs to be able to, to respond to that. I think at the end of the day, like Remy was talking about, I don't think it matters
DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah,
Jay Ray: it hasn't stopped making hits since the beginning.
DJ Sir Daniel: that's right.
Jay Ray: had it.
[00:26:29] The Fight for Credit
Jay Ray: I think it's actually more important that we acknowledge ghostwriters so that they're not ghostwriting at all. need these people's names on the credits so that they're them. Today and their families are reaping the benefits of the hard work that they did. And if we keep this idea of ghost writers alive, we keep this music industry, uh, in the same perpetual cycle that it's in where people are dying penniless and they don't need to, because guess what?
You wrote a hit song. You need to have your name on that song. So I feel like that's the fight. Like the fight is no, no ghost writers. Everybody gets credit.
DJ Sir Daniel: Come to find out. Everybody ate. I don't think there's anything left to be said. Like Jay Ray, you, you really stuck a pin in that.
[00:27:19] Closing Remarks and Call to Action
DJ Sir Daniel: Um, thank you all for checking out this episode of Queue Points podcast. Jay Ray, just let the folks know how these ghost writers over here can, can survive and keep Putting out these, um, this wonderful project called Queue Points Podcast.
Jay Ray: Yo, y'all. So if you can see our faces, if you can hear our voices, thank you so much. We appreciate you. Hit the subscribe button wherever you are. Also, if there's a notification bell, hit that too so you can know when Queue Points drops. New stuff. us. We really appreciate it. You can buy us a coffee. We would really, really dig that.
You can get additional content. On our Patreon. Visit our website at Queue Points. com where you can sign up for our newsletter and read our blog. Thank you so much. We really appreciate y'all.
DJ Sir Daniel: Oh, like I say, at the end of every show in this life, you have a choice. You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play. I'm DJ Sir Daniel,
Jay Ray: My name is Jay Ray y'all.
DJ Sir Daniel: and this has been Queue Points Podcast, dropping the needle on black music history. We'll see you on the next go round. Peace.
Jay Ray: Peace y'all.
[00:28:23] Closing Theme