Neneh Cherry, Punk, Rap and the Making of a Black Icon

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Neneh Cherry, Punk, Rap and the Making of a Black Icon

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[00:00:00]

Intro Theme

Welcome to the Show

Sir Daniel: Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast. I am DJ Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my governments as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III. And uh, Sir Daniel, as we rap this year's Women's History Month, we are about to talk about an artist that I consider one of the coolest women on the planet Bar none.

Why Neneh Cherry Matters

Sir Daniel: Absolutely cool factor on a thousand. You know, in the conversation about MCs that are, are hybrids that can both skillfully rap and sing. Neneh Cherry, for [00:01:00] whatever reason, is left out of the conversation. And we've, we've known for close to 40 years now that Neneh Cherry is a death at doing both.

And we have known of this woman now for, like I said, close, close to 40 years.

And it all started off with a "Buffalo Stance", right?

And Jay Ray. She is a product of tons and tons of, I'm sure, reggae music, all kinds of world music, and of course influences from the United States. And then we get Neneh Cherry coming to the United States for her Virgin Records debut.

Jay Ray: Yeah, man.

Nomadic Roots and Punk London

Jay Ray: Um, I find Neneh's story so fascinating and, um, so she, so her mother was from Sweden and, um, her father was from Sierra Leone, her biological father.

Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray: And. So she was born in, in Sweden [00:02:00] and spent time there and her mother ended up, uh, marrying Don Cherry, famed jazz musician. And what I find so interesting about Neneh's. Uh, story and it bleeds into the music, right. To that point, she was, she had a very nomadic childhood. of my favorite Neneh Cherry stories that she writes about in her book, A Thousand Threads, that Neneh Cherry and her family were in Istanbul. They were touring there and at the time, uh, 'cause they used to like tour in a VW bus, so they would just like the,

Sir Daniel: As one does

Jay Ray: as one does.

So they would drive around to these different countries and, and be on tour jazz musicians on tour. And her mom would be part of the, the act too. But anyway, they were in Istanbul and they met James Baldwin. 'cause [00:03:00] James Baldwin was living there at the time.

Sir Daniel: Wow.

Jay Ray: She tells this great story about James Baldwin, just like. Talking to her and, and not talking at her like sometimes adults do, and how she remembered how kind he was. But that encapsulates the of Neneh Cherry is she grows up in there, was. Art at every point in her life. Her mother's an artist. Her, her father, biological father's an artist. Her stepfather's an artist.

So there was this in her blood right from the very beginning. And to that point of the musical side of things, they, they of course, moved to. They, they moved to New York, so she spends a bunch of time in New York because Don moves to New York. Neneh goes to London, so she's a teenager, leaves New [00:04:00] York, goes to London as one does,

Sir Daniel: Right.

Jay Ray: and gets in with the punk crowd.

So she is this biracial, um, uh, girl. She's a girl at the time.

Gets in with the punk crowd and starts to hang out. Hang out with members of the slits. She befriends Ari up, who's a big, the slits are a huge group at the time, blending sky and punk and reggae and all of that to the point. So Neneh starts to perform. In these groups. And so she shows up in 1981 is kind of in Europe the first time that Neneh starts to appear on songs. So she's on my love with the New age steppers, which, and all of these groups overlap. So like the slits are doing a thing, but they with another group, so they're on that album. And so Neneh's on the album too. But then she joins a group called, uh, Rip Rig + Panic. [00:05:00] They become a whole thing in Europe, but they're doing like punk and sky and all of that stuff.

From Wild Bunch to Buffalo Stance

Jay Ray: And so she's in that well and, and leading into kind of the way that we know Neneh, in the, the mid eighties the Wild Bunch

they're one of the big sound systems. There's just a group of DJs. They do parties everywhere and. She appears on a song called, uh, "Looking Good Diving with the Wild Bunch"

where Neneh is rapping on it. gets heard by another DJ and they decide to remix that song, and that song ultimately becomes what we know as "Buffalo Stance". And that's the first time I think both you and I discover Neneh Cherry. do you remember about "Buffalo Stance"?

'cause you probably saw the video before you heard the song. What do you remember about [00:06:00] that song?

Sir Daniel: Okay, so let me first say this. Um, I'm so glad that you gave that backstory on Neneh, on her, her, um, her childhood and the, the path that her parents took her on, which ultimately led her to being a badass rockstar. You know, um, I have to admit. In the moment of transparency, Jerry, sometimes I, when I hear stories like that, sometimes I kind of wish I grew up like that, you know, because I, I, I feel like it just automatically makes you a, it makes you cooler

and you know, it automatically, I don't know, ups your, your, your, your, your skill and whatever it is you do, but I just, I just find that, that kind of life fascinating.

Now I know. You know, it probably would not have worked out for me. 'cause my personality, I'm very type A, I

Jay Ray: You don't want to be in the VW bus touring

ser.

Sir Daniel: Not as an adult, I'm sure as a child when if I, when I was a [00:07:00] lot shorter, it would've been fine, but not as an, not as an adult.

Buffalo Stance Video Memories

Sir Daniel: But fast forward to I think about 89, I recall distinctly, um, seeing this video on video music box.

'cause remember, as I've said numerous times, we did not have cable in Brooklyn at that time, or at least I didn't.

And the only time that I saw music videos was on Friday night videos or. Video Music Box hosted by Ralph McDaniel, and this video would play only on, at the beginning, would only play on Fridays because that's when he would do all hip hop on Fridays.

And I just remember being struck at how. How colorful the video looked. Um, I automatically felt, I could automatically tell this has a, a UK feel to it. Before I even heard her, I saw the visuals and I was like, this isn't, this isn't giving, uh, Elmhurst Queens. This is definitely from across the pond. And I [00:08:00] immediately liked it because as I've mentioned before, I have this.

I've always had this attraction to, to things uk, to Britain, to British pop, all of that good stuff. And so just, yeah, just remembering how vibrant the video was. Um, her flow, her flow was ridiculous. Her flow was immaculate. Um. though in her look I can, you can always tell that in the UK when it came to hip hop, they kind of were like a little, just a little bit behind, but they, when they were put on as far as their drip is concerned, uh, as far as representing for hip hop, they literally would take.

Like whatever stereotype or whatever, um, the blueprint of B boys and B girls was, and they would like crank that up 10 times.

Like they always had a good sneaker on, um, what they call trainers, um, a, a nice velo suit or whatever type of, um, [00:09:00] sweats. They love sweats. And I just, you know, just recall the fashion.

And another thing that stuck out to me were those two girls that were dancing, backup for her.

Jay Ray: Yeah.

Sir Daniel: That were, that were doing the very rigid motions and, you know, and making faces. And I was like, huh. This is a, this is a departure from the hip hop that I've come to know and understand here in the, in the United States.

But she, I don't recall ever. Purchasing the album. I don't know what kept me from buying it, but I do recall enjoying the song.

I do recall the moment that it took off

and when MCV picked it up, it was no longer just like a hip hop thing, an underground thing. I mean, it was. Everywhere. And I think that was the summer that I moved.

We moved to Florida and finally got cable, finally got BET. So I was able to see all of the [00:10:00] what, what became pop crossover hits,

or what was considered pop crossover hits for or for the MTV audience. And Neneh Cherry was in that. In that mix, you know, Neneh Cherry was in the mix with the, uh, with your tone locs and your, um, young MCs, your, your hammers, your um, your vanilla ices.

You know, in that moment, this is when it was like, oh, hip hop is, hip hop is doing something here. And Neneh Cherry is one of the very few women, um, with a hip hop background or a hip hop. Background assigned to her

because she'll tell you, she'll probably tell you that she was not like mc was not just her only title.

Like I said in the beginning, she's one of those people that can do both, um, and do both well.

Jay Ray: Yeah, I, I absolutely agree. And you know, I remember vividly. [00:11:00] Seeing the video and having the

same feeling you had of like, Ooh, this, first of all, the um. I love a pop sensibility, like when you can give me a a, a a, a hard thing, but you could like add like some pop cutesy to it. Jay Ray is always gonna have like a soft spot for, for that.

And I felt like "Buffalo Stance" balanced those two things really well. So you had, you had hip hop at its foundation, but the synths on top of it also felt, um, very, uh, pop and new wave, which. Totally into and totally is Neneh's background,

Sir Daniel: And shout out to the dj. The dj, cutting on that record,

clean,

really clean cuts on that record,

Jay Ray: Absolutely. So I was, uh, immediately a huge fan.

And um, I remember, so back then, Sir Daniel, and you'll recall [00:12:00] this, back in the olden days, kids

Sir Daniel: the

Jay Ray: one, we bought CDs in the store, and I remember this CD was in the long box.

Sir Daniel: Mm.

Jay Ray: And of course Neneh is on the the wet hair and the big dollar chain medallion, and she's got her biker shorts and the bra on.

Look at very 1989 and it was called Raw

like sushi.

I didn't have a reference point for what sushi was, but I knew it sounded cool, and I

knew she looked cool and I knew I liked the video, but I will say. W um, what endeared me to her is in my growth as an activist. She, I distinctly remember when MTV played, I Got You Under My skin for the first time, and to hear the word aids come out of like a rapper's mouth. And [00:13:00] that video was dope and she's in all blue and I'm like, oh, I can. Be an activist and make music like that's a thing you can do.

And it was the first time that for me it clicked that it wasn't just all about the music, like you could do so much more. And I think that was the thing that really endeared me. So she was not only cool, she was not only rapping and singing, she was not only not from here, although she, you know, was living in New York at the time. She was also like, no, I'm speaking up for something that matters. And so it was way deeper for me than just the music

when it came to Neneh.

Sir Daniel: Awesome.

Jay Ray: yeah.

90s Evolution and Buddy X Remix

Jay Ray: I, um, as we move, so the nineties changed things, so Neneh up at the end of the eighties. Hip hop sounds a certain way

Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray: and everything is moving so [00:14:00] quickly. Um. Everything. Like there's a lot more women on the scene. There's a lot more different kinds of rappers. Like we now have a tribe called Quest. We now have leaders of the new school showing up, right? So there's all these different things, and what I loved is Neneh. into this new mode. So she's adopting that jazzy flow and that feel by way of her association with gang star. And of course we get, we get the second record and then it shows up with Sassy, where you got Guru and Neneh on a track together. And then Home Brew shows up where it's, to me. The record that I'm like, oh yeah, yeah.

This girl right here is like dope. Um, she's got the, the, she's singing and she's rapping. But you got Guru on it. You got [00:15:00] DJ Premier on it. Um, and then you have this sneaky song that we get a video for called "Buddy X" that shows up.

Sir Daniel: You know that "Buddy X", first of all, you wanna talk about quintessential nineties looked like a gap commercial because everybody had on some form of it looked like, it literally looked like a gap commercial because she had every type of woman. S um, shade, shape, size, um, hair textures, everything. I didn't know at the time what the subject matter of the, the

Jay Ray: None of us did.

Sir Daniel: None of us did. And 'cause I was like, huh, you know, clearly she's talking about a dude. And it was a very, the video is very men versus women and, you know, they're kicking around a ball or they're throwing something at each other.

I can't remember exactly what, but, um, yeah. So the record, it's, it lent. To the MTV landscape. Once again, the MTV soundscape once [00:16:00] again. But it wasn't until recently Jay Ray that I pulled, um, I got my hands on the buddy, um, the "Buddy X" record. And lo and behold, there are these really dope remixes. There's some really dope house remixes on there, I gotta tell you that you would flip for, but there's also.

A Jeep remix. 'cause you know, everything in the, in the mid nineties was about Jeeps and boom, booming in the Jeeps. And there is a remix from an up and coming rapper from Brooklyn, who at the time we called Biggie Smalls. But of course we got to know him as a notorious BIG, and I was like, hold up. Why am I just now finding out about this, this.

Remix is tough. Biggie's verse is quintessential biggie. But the record is so tough. Jay Ray, it's so tough and I wish, and I want more people to hear [00:17:00] about it

that remix was so tough because, you know, at the time, you know, we were east coast stomping

and it automatically, it, hearing somebody sing over boom bat beats is, is just a treat. You had people like Neneh singing over beats like that. You had your, um, your lashes, uh, you had KRS, you know, you had KRS one's wife, Simone g Simone, singing over beats like that. So I, I, that's why that I was attracted to that particular remix and just how it flowed. And of course. you know, being quintessential big, you know, coming through, coming through on the track.

He's unmistakable with his, um, with his flow and his rhyme is, is elite. It's just a really dope remix and also just solidifies how important remixes were to us back in the nineties that made that song completely different. It was the same. Same subject matter, [00:18:00] same dope subject matter, same. You know, Neneh Cherry doing her thing, but you could drop that in in the tunnel, you could drop that and people will rhyme over that and decipher.

It is crazy. I love that.

Jay Ray: Yeah, you know what? I hadn't even thought of this, but. You are absolutely right. So even when we think about, um, "Buffalo Stance", right? The fact that "Buffalo Stance" is actually a remix of, you know, "Looking Good Diving with the Wild Bunch", right? That idea of. A producer or dj hearing a song and being inspired and being inspired enough to be like, Ooh, I hear something else in

this. Let's see what we can do with, it matters so much and we absolutely need more of that. I think in, in the, in you about to

Sir Daniel: music sphere? No, because when you think about it, if a DJ out in LA did not flip over tramp, we would've never gotten push it.

The push that we know now.[00:19:00]

Jay Ray: So I, I think that is really, really important. And when we look at the career of Neneh Cherry, which from the time we get to know her, uh, for her first three albums, her first three solo albums, there's Royal I Sushi, home Brew. And then she does man after that. Um. Go back and check out, man. For those people that haven't had it, um, haven't heard it, it's super dope. But she definitely is an artist that took a break. Right. So there's, there's a l. But she's dropping singles every now and again, um, mostly in the uk. Um, what's interesting is one of my absolute favorite Neneh Cherry songs happens in her gap, like in Her Off Gap, and it's a song called Twisted Mess that comes out in like 98, 99.

It's on a soundtrack called like Best Laid Plans, and we'll make sure that we include that in the [00:20:00] description as well, but. Neneh essentially takes this gap break where she apparently had been trying to record it wasn't happening, so she just was like, eh. I don't have to do that. Right.

Legacy Wrap and Listener Shoutouts

Jay Ray: And then by the time she resurfaces in the early 2010s as a solo act, um, she has this renewed vigor about who she is as an artist. But I think what I, what I love so much is throughout her career, there are these. Genre bending songs that go from punk all the way through jazz. Like one of my favorite Neneh Cherry collab albums is called a The Cherry Thing, which is a collaboration between a jazz band, the Thing and Her, which is kind of her really resurfacing.

And you get all of that in the career, right? Because she's not afraid. And [00:21:00] so. I love that we get to kind of experience that creative freedom, and I think we need to champion more artists being free

with how they navigate their careers and the type of music that they create. Neneh has kind flown by whatever it is she wants to do,

and. There is not a Neneh Cherry project that I don't like, and it's you are getting Neneh every time you get Neneh.

Sir Daniel: This conversation just reminds me of that. Neneh is there is a through line. You can tell her bloodline. Her bloodline is kise.

Jay Ray: Yeah.

Sir Daniel: Her bloodline are the Santi Golds, you know. The, the, the Reeses people, the, the women that don't, aren't really adhering to anything, you [00:22:00] know, anything conventional, but. They're forever cool.

And they just know. They know good music. They know what the people are gonna like and they're always going to give it to you. And so I'm glad that we're taking this time to tip our hats, as it were to Neneh Cherry and just round out this black well we're, I don't care it Black women's. It

Jay Ray: black women's history.

Month.

Sir Daniel: Month, international month, you know, with Neneh Cherry. So I hope this reaches her and I hopes that she knows that these two blokes here on the state side really have dug what she has done over the years, the pa, the years, and just really wish the best for her. And thank you Jay Ray, for insisting that we big up.

Jay Ray: Oh man. No, sir. Daniel, thank you for, uh, saying no that this is something that we should do. And thank y'all for tuning in. Uh, to cue points, let us know your favorite Neneh Cherry song [00:23:00] is, whether it's her solo or her with other folks. Um. Let us know if you're just discovering her because you heard about her on Queue Points.

We want to know that too.

But thank y'all so much for tuning in. If you could see our faces and hear our voices, go ahead and hit the subscribe button wherever you are. If you enjoy Queue Points, chances are your friends, family, colleagues will enjoy the show too. Visit our website@queuepoints.com. We encourage you to become a member and support Queue Points because your support helps us. To keep being able to do shows like this and support artists like this that we love. Um, and you can become a member by just clicking the membership button at the website. While you're there, you can listen to all of the archive episodes of Queue Points. There are lots and lots of things to tune into just like this. And you could shop our store@store.queuepoints.com and you could check us out on Substack where we have a lot of other content. We appreciate y'all. We love y'all.

Sir Daniel: That's [00:24:00] right, and like I said, the end of every episode in this life, you have a choice. You can either pick up the needle or you could let the record play. I am DJ Sir Daniel,

Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray. Y'all,

Sir Daniel: and this has been Queue Points podcast, dropping the needle on black music history. We will see you on the next go round. Looking good, hanging at the.

Jay Ray: peace out y'all.

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