'When Crack Was King': Author Donovan X. Ramsey On His Book About A Misunderstood Era

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Welcome to Queue Points

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): Greetings and welcome back to another episode of Cue Points podcast, dropping the needle on black music history. I am DJ s Daniel, and

Jay Ray (@jayrayisthename): my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my governments as Johnny Ray Corner gave the third. What's

happening people.

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): Jay Ray, we are, wow. This is an auspicious moment for both of us because we, this particular episode listener, we have a real life author on the show. We do like a for real, for real author, and the first of many to come, I'm sure. And, you know, and Jay, Jay Ray in our discussions recently, um, regarding hip hop mm-hmm.[00:02:00]

The 50th anniversary of hip hop. Um, I think that this journey, we're about to go on with our, um, our guest is actually a very integral part of the hip hop story, and I believe needs to be told. And I don't know if our, our guest realizes that he is in fact documenting a very pivotal moment in hip hop history.

So, You know, I think we, you know, typically we go into a lot of, you know, shoulda chatter between the two of us, but I think this time around it's very important that we get, there's so much for us to cover. Yes.

Donovan X. Ramsey Bio

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): So I would like, for us to get into the, um, bio of our guests, you know, I'm, I'm feeling smart right now.

I have on

Jay Ray (@jayrayisthename): my readers You got your, you got your readers and everything.

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): Yeah, my readers. So, um, our guest. On this episode of Cue Points podcast [00:03:00] is none other than Donovan x Ramsey. Donovan x Ramsey is a journalist, author and voice on issues of race, politics, and patterns of power in America. His reporting has appeared in the New York Times, the Atlantic, gq, the Wall Street Journal, Ebony and Essence.

He has been a staff reporter for the Los Angeles Times News One and the Grio, and has served as an editor at the Marshall Project and Complex Ramsey Holes, a master's degree from the Columbia University, uh, graduate School of Journalism, and a bachelor's degree in Psychology from Morehouse College.

Donovan's latest book. It is titled When Crack Was King, A People's History of a Misunderstood Era When Crack was King follows four individuals to give us a startling portrait of crack's, destruction and devastating legacy. Weaving together [00:04:00] riveting research with the voices of survivors when crack was king is a crucial reevaluation of the era and a powerful argument argument for providing historically violated communities with the resources they deserve.

Welcome Donovan X. Ramsey to Queue Points

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): Q Points Family. Please welcome Donovan x Ramsey.

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): Hey, how's it going guys? Thank you for having me, and thank you for that very warm introduction.

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): Absolutely. We are, we are beyond thrilled, like I said in the intro, Donovan, to have you on, to discuss when Crack was king, because as we said, The crack epidemic is a very pivotal, um, moment in, um, hip hop history. Mm-hmm. As a matter of fact, I think if you look at it, the, the, the growth, the boom of the hip hop industry and the culture coincides, coincided [00:05:00] with the growing crack epidemic in the streets. And so I think it's such an important time to have you on to discuss your book.

And first and foremost, we are super proud of you about the book. I remember when you, the first time we met, you told me about the book, but we'll, that's a story for, you know, off the air. But I'm so excited for you. Jay Ray and I have lived with this book for months now. lived with this book for months. And what is so beautiful about it, Donovan, is that the stories feel so real. There were, for me personally, there were three times where I just had to put the book down. I was like, okay. Mm-hmm. Pause. We're gonna come back. Okay. And, but, and that's a good thing, right?

Jay Ray (@jayrayisthename): That means the stories are doing what they need to do. They're making us think and they're making us feel, right. One of the other beauties about your book is that it takes this topic [00:06:00] that Sir Daniel and I have lived through.

Right. Um, and it allows us to revisit it in a way that adds a lot of context. Because as things are happening, you're getting one message, but then when you do a hindsight 2020, you are like, oh, there's a whole other message here that we were completely missing.

Right? What inspired you to even write this book and revisit

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): this era in American history? Yeah, thank you for that question. I, um, I wrote this book because I grew up in a community in Columbus, Ohio, in the early nineties that was still dealing with the crack epidemic. You know, that these Midwestern cities were hit later than the cities on the coast.

Donovan remembers his neighbor Michelle

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): I remember, you know, people like my neighbor Michelle down the street who. I kind of [00:07:00] opened the book writing about because she was somebody that I never really got to see or spend time with, but she was the talk of the town, right. Everybody talked about how much of a problem Michelle was and, and how much of a problem her house was.

Michelle would play Patti LaBelle's "If Only You Knew" on repeat (DONOVAN SOLO)

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): And um, my most vivid memory of her is in the middle of the night when I'm trying to go to sleep in my bed and I can hear Patty LaBelle's if only you knew, playing on a loop in the background. Mm-hmm. And that was Michelle. She would like to, you know, she would get high, I guess, and she would listen to Patty LaBelle.

She would play that song over and over again. And even though I was, what, maybe five, um, you know, in my dark bedroom, I could feel that she was trying to communicate something that like she was going through something. Yes, she was. Yeah. Saying if only you knew Right. The changes I'm going through. Mm-hmm.

And. You know, she disappeared from the neighborhood, but I never lost that [00:08:00] curiosity about her, about who she was and what it was she was going through. So this book, you know, you talk about it bringing context mm-hmm. To the individuals who, you know, um, used crack, who, you know, sold crack. Um, I guess that was what I was trying to do, is I was trying to get to know Michelle and people like her better, and as a result, trying to get to know us better, right.

Because Michelle was a part of our community and there, but, and, and there, but for the grace of God, go I. Mm-hmm.

What was the most challenging thing for Donovan writing this book?

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): And, um, you know, and when I look back, I, I think that this is so meaningful to me because I know that that could have been my mother, that could have been my sister, that could have been me.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Really

Jay Ray (@jayrayisthename): quickly, um,

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): I'm curious,

Jay Ray (@jayrayisthename): what was the most challenging thing for you?

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): Writing this book. Yeah. [00:09:00] Um, you know, I thought it would be the reporting, right? I thought it would be trying to get people to talk to me about the, oftentimes some of like the most difficult parts of their life that wasn't hard.

That a lot of people were, I mean, spilling that people had this like, well of experience that they wanted to share with not just me, but with other people. And they were, you know, it was like these stories were always the kind of on the tip of their tongues. The hardest thing for me was, uh, having to hear the stories and, you know, I had always prided myself on being able, you know, as a journalist to, to hear stuff and to process it.

Mm-hmm. And then to move on. But, you know, I spent five years researching and reporting and writing out this book, and at the end of it I was a wreck. Mm-hmm. From just kind of living vicariously through. You know, the, uh, hundreds of folks that I interviewed, and ultimately the four people whose stories I [00:10:00] write about that, um, you know, I had lost 40 pounds.

Um, I had heart palpitations and I was wearing a heart monitor. Wow. Because just the, uh, the, the stress and like the secondhand trauma of hearing people's stories and then also having like my own stuff triggered. Right. Like growing up in a neighborhood where, you know, you knew to get on the ground when you heard gunshots.

Yeah. And then you went back to, you know, having dinner. Like, like it was nothing. Or, you know, having my first bike stolen by an addict. Mm-hmm. And the stress of having to go home and say, I don't have my bike anymore because, you know, the tire popped and this guy said that he could help me and he ran off with my bike.

You know what I mean? Um, All of that came, came flooding back in. Um, but, but what I will say is this, is that writing the book helped me process it. And I hope that it helps readers process their own stuff too. [00:11:00]

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): You know, and listening to you say that,

How did crack use begin in the Black community?

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): and we're gonna talk about that some more, about how, um, each of us, the change that we felt in our prospective neighborhoods when the epidemic.

Really took off. We're gonna talk about that a little bit later. But I wanna say thank you for those five years of research. Mm-hmm. Because there are often, and I'm, you know, not to give away too much of the book, but there has always been this mythology mm-hmm. Amongst the community, especially the black community, about exactly how crack got in our community.

Mm-hmm. Got in our neighborhoods. You know, even some of our, our favorite rap songs like to say that Crack was like legit put in the community. Planted in the community. But your book helps to debunk some of those myths. And can you just for our, um, briefly for our [00:12:00] audience, just tell us a little bit about maybe exactly what led to the crack.

Distribution in our communities or where crack showed up. Cuz it just, it's not something that was created in a lab somewhere.

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): Right? Yeah,

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): yeah. We, you tell, you tell eloquently tell us exactly how crack became to form and then, but just a little bit for the listeners cause we still want them to buy the book, but just for a little bit tell how it happened.

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): Yeah. Well, you know, I knew going into it that this book would not be complete if I didn't ask and answer that question.

Did the government, namely the CIA distribute crack in black neighborhoods to disrupt our communities? And, um, the answer is complicated and I, you know, uh, it's the reason why you write a book, right?

So that way you can actually devote time to sort of building the story and the context of it. But the short answer is that, um, the [00:13:00] government turned a blind eye to the fact that. Crack was being distributed in black neighborhoods, in that we were falling into, um, a, a epidemic, you know, for the same reasons that the government turn, turns a blind eye to everything else that impacts black communities first and worse, um, because of anti-black racism.

Mm-hmm. So, you know, um, the, the truth is actually sadder, I think, than the idea of a conspiracy, right? To like, create crack in a lab and then to like, you know, drop it into community system, you know, uh, uh, systematically. The truth is that black blackness is as such, it is a position as much as it is an identity.

Mm-hmm. Blackness in America means that you are marked to be hit first. That whatever hits America. Like I said, you will get [00:14:00] it first and worst, whether it is something like Hurricane Katrina mm-hmm. Whether it's something like Covid that a, a, a disaster that happens because as, as black folks, we are pushed out towards the margins that it gets us first and we get it worse than anybody else.

So that's the way that it was with crack was, you know, um, the long story kinda short is that there was a, a glut of cocaine mm-hmm. In, um, south and Central America that the United States allowed, um, uh, folks that we were supporting in South and Central America to bring into the US so they could raise funds to sort of turn over governments.

And, you know, we had interest over there and we were like, we can't give y'all money, we can't give you weapons, but we can let y'all make some money. So they, you know, shipped cocaine into the US and they made money that way. And the consequence of it was that

there was a lot of cocaine in the country and people [00:15:00] started experimenting with it, right.

It was, you know, like, there's a lot of it. So it becomes cheaper. And with anything that, there's a lot of people say, well, you know, how else can I, how else can I consume this? Mm-hmm. And I would sort of liken it for, for anybody that kind of wants to wrap their head around it is, you know, there's a lot of weed in the country today, and people will figure out, okay, I can make edibles, I can do a vape, I can do this, like, you know, oil or this hash or whatever it is.

These different ways of consuming. And people were experimenting with cocaine the same way in the seventies and early eighties.

And there's a group of, uh, uh, students, white college students in the Bay Area who, uh, were supposedly chemistry students that, um, that cre that, that used a chemical pro, uh, process called Free freebasing.

Where you free the base of a compound from its other elements. Mm-hmm. And that's how we got the first name for crack. It was free base and what [00:16:00] that did was it made cocaine, smokeable. Mm-hmm. If you try to burn powder cocaine, it destroys it. But if you free the base of it from the other elements, it's a smokable substance and once something is smokable, it goes directly to your brain, it gets you high very quickly and it's a very intense high that doesn't last very long.

So with that, you know, they created not a new drug, it's the same drug as powder cocaine chemically, but something that would be cheaper and super accessible and it just took off like wildfire. From there, it, you know, traveled the normal paths of commerce and relationship from the Bay Area to Los Angeles.

And once it was in Los Angeles, it just took off. Um, you know, all throughout the country. Then it came to New York, and then there was a taste for it in New York. So then people started bringing cocaine into New York through Florida and, you know, other, uh, uh, uh, places down south. So, [00:17:00] um, and, and black folks really paid the, the, the cost of some pretty intense negligence on, on, on the part of the government, and then they turned around and criminalized us for it, right?

So I think that, you know, it's, it's hard for it to not feel like a conspiracy because it's all too convenient, right? That like this thing happens and then you have this perfect tool to criminalize black communities. But again, I think that the truth is a lot sadder than the fiction, which is that, you know, they could use Covid to criminalize us, right?

Mm-hmm. You didn't get your vaccine. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Right. You know, you didn't, um, you know, like, you know, you didn't leave New Orleans during Katrina. Well, now we can do all manner of things to you or allow all manner of things to happen to you because of a choice that you did or didn't make.

So, um, I, I thought I would say long story short, but that is the story of how Crack got into our communities.

The rise of crack was precipitated and aided by Black dispair

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): And you [00:18:00] know, one of the things that you highlight

Jay Ray (@jayrayisthename): in your book that was heartbreaking and is truth is because, um, there have been so many disappointments, um, for black folks leading up to the rise of crack.

It also made it much easier for us to search for that level of escape. Right. Yeah. And you, I remember reading about that. You were actually talking about it as it related to like Baltimore, how they didn't really have a drug market and then all of a sudden there was this big one. Right. But also the despair of the folks made that so much easier, right?

Yeah. And going back to that blind eye of being able to say, we are not going to deal with this until we absolutely have to. One of the other things that happened in the same era, and it was handled the same way, was H I V in the black community where it's like, we're not going to deal with this until we have to.

And so you [00:19:00] have in the eighties all of the stuff that was happening, happening with the Reagan administration. You have the crack epidemic happening and you have H I V. This is all hitting black folks at the

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): same time. I think is a really incredible point. You know, one of the reasons why I wanted to write this book is because I am an eighties baby that, you know, I was born in 1987, so both crack and hiv aids predate me that I don't know, a world where those things don't exist.

And I really wanted to write this book. And the reason why it is such a thick book is that it starts in the prec crack era. So you can actually feel what we lost in our community. Um, and yeah, you know, that like that's an important distinction to make and it's something that I wanted to underline in the book that.

You know, this happened to us because we were devastated. And that's something that people understand in the context of something like opioids now, right? That they talk about white communities in rural [00:20:00] America being disaffected. Yes. They say, oh, they voted for Trump because they were disaffected, that they use opioids because they're disaffected.

That they're hopeless and mm-hmm. And they don't know you know what to do about the economy and you know where they are politically. Well, what do you think we were in 1980s after our leaders had been assassinated, after we had, you know, launched civil rights and black power movements and elected black mayors and we saw nothing from Yes, we were disaffected and we were looking for escape.

And you know, people forget about this when they think about addiction, but it is a way to check out, it's a way to escape. It makes you feel good. So, you know, cocaine is something that it produces euphoria. In users, black folks needed to feel euphoric and nothing else made us feel that way. And that's why we were so susceptible to the crack cocaine epidemic at that time.

It's not because we're bad people, because we make, you know, [00:21:00] particularly bad choices that other folks don't make. We were in a bad position.

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TRANSITION

Our childhoods and neighborhoods changed all around us.

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): I remember seeing a, a very real change in how we were allowed to be children. Yes. And how we were allowed to be outside and knowing, noticing all of these little, these little. Containers on the ground that either have red caps or blue caps.

Mm-hmm. And not knowing what that was, but knowing, hey, stay away from that. And to Jay Ray's point about the H I V epidemic. Mm-hmm. Also noticing needles on the ground and everywhere we went. It's like, be careful where you're sitting. Be careful where you're stepping when you're playing. Watch out for these items because it's dangerous.

You don't wanna touch anything, you don't want to get stuck by needles. So that, I just remember that [00:22:00] plainly growing up. Yeah. And then also I think, and this goes back to, um, to, is it Lenny? Ooh.

Jay Ray (@jayrayisthename): In the book, that story, that

story was

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): hard, bro. I know.

The crack epidemic affected Black women in so many difficult ways

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): So going back to Lenny, I, it reminded me of how hard the epidemic hit women in our community.

Yes. Yes. Um, I, I specifically remember one night, one of my friends, her, her dad picked us up, said, Hey, we're gonna go to the, you know, a, a street fair where they said in the hood we thought it was the best thing ever. Cuz you know, we, we from, we from the hood, we from Brooklyn, right? And so there's a Ferris wheel, there's a little spin around carousels.

There's, uh, uh, merry-go-round, all of that. And I just remember not going, not going out that much at night, but we went at night because it was, the lights looked better, all of that. Right? And I specifically remember hearing, getting there and hearing slick Ricks, [00:23:00] um, the rulers back. Mm-hmm. Just pumping throughout the system, right.

And seeing this one woman, she was very slender. She had on a very tight acid washed outfit. She had a very stingy ponytail at the top of her head. She, and, and I remember. The looks on the other people, like other women looking at her because she was, she was feeling it. She was holding onto one of the rails.

Mm-hmm. And she, I mean, Ja Ray, I mean, she is just getting it on like nobody's business today. We would just say, oh, she's lit. And we would probably join in with her. But back then, I remember them specifically singling her out and hearing the whispers, oh, well, you know? Mm-hmm. She's, uh, and she does this for, and so I just, that was one of my very earliest memories of seeing how the drug epidemic.

Hit our women and how the women in our community [00:24:00] were affected by just the visual perception of what they were doing to get these drugs. Yes. Yes. Again, as a community, we're trying to feel better, but on top of that, add to that, if you are the, the main caregiver in the household Yes. And you have this habit.

Mm-hmm. Not only are you trying to take care of your kids by doing things for money mm-hmm. You're chasing a high as well. Yeah. And so that, that's a lot for a community to deal with. That's why all the aftercare afterschool, umhmm aftercare programs started popping up in school because a lot of these moms just weren't able to get them on time to pick up the kids or necessarily have food at the house to feed the kids.

And so I just, I I thank you for making that a very big part of the book as well, and highlighting how black women got a extra lashing mm-hmm. Because of the epidemic.

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): Yeah, that's a great point. You know, um, you know,

Lennie, one of the characters in the book, experienced a lot of abuse as a child

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): Lenny [00:25:00] is, uh, one of the main, uh, four characters that I profile in the book. She grew up in South Central la.

She grew up what they called the rolling sixties and saw the, uh, forming of the rolling 60 Crips. You know, Nipsey Hussle was one of those rolling 60, rolling 60 Crips. And, um, you know, she ended up, uh, in that position because she just suffered a lot of abuse growing up. So, you know, it was terrible enough what was happening inside of her home.

But then she sort of left the, the home as a teenager into a community that, you know, all that it had to offer her was sex, work and drugs. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, you know, she literally didn't know any better, you know, before she knew it. You know, she was using crack for decades. Yeah. And, you know, and, and involved in sex work for decades.

Now, what I should say is that it's important to underline that Lenny survived it. Yes. And that Lenny [00:26:00] is, uh, a, a drug counselor helping other people into recovery for whatever substance they may be abusing. Because, because she saw the worst of it as a black woman. That there's no place that anybody that's dealing with addiction has been that she hasn't been.

And, um, you know, that story, you know, is so striking to me. Um, sir, sir Daniel, that you tell, because what it reminds me of is that

"Many of us grew up in these neighborhoods that were like steel towns where nobody talked about steel." - Donovan X. Ramsey

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): many of us grew up in these neighborhoods that, um, were like steel towns where nobody talked about steel. Right. So, you know, it's like, yeah. It is the economy of the neighborhood.

That, you know, you hear the whispers, you know so and so is on that shit. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Or, you know, you know what she doing or you know, you don't go down that street cuz that's where they be at. And you know, then you grow up feeling like you understand what the crack epidemic [00:27:00] was, but you never really had the conversations that you needed to have.

Basic things like a conversation with an addict. Like, what made you want to use crack? Why did you use it for so long? You know, when I interviewed Lenny, that was one of the first things that I said to her was, you know, what made you, you know, smoke crack for decades? And she said, because it felt good.

Mm-hmm. She was like, I, I can't tell you how good I felt when I smelled crack. That, you know, even now in, in recovery, I can acknowledge that it felt good and I had a great time until I didn't. Mm. And by the time that I was not having a good time, I was stuck. And, you know, and that's real. And people don't necessarily want to hear that because it's not the, you know, oh, I can't believe I did it.

She's like, no, people use drugs because drugs feel good. You know? And, um, that's it. If we don't acknowledge that, then like, then like we're not doing that dynamic of service. [00:28:00] But, um, you know, yes. That, that's a part of why I wrote the book, so that those of us that have those kind of memories can actually investigate what were the stories behind scenes, just like that.

Yeah. Uh,

Jay Ray (@jayrayisthename): wow. You absolutely true. Um, we've been having that conversation as well as it relates to crystal meth use particularly, um, um, among the, uh, black gay men in the community. And one of the conversations we had was about that very thing. Like, we have to acknowledge the fact that for folks this feels good and provides them with mm-hmm.

An escape. We gotta start there.

Transition

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"What Chester Makes, Makes Chester" is dismantled and Jay Ray's hometown descends into chaos

Jay Ray (@jayrayisthename): I do vividly re remember my community changing. So when you say you're talking about a steel town and nobody talks about steel, that's where I live.

I live in Chester, Pennsylvania. This was an industrial city where they took [00:29:00] down, there used to be a sign over the train station that said what Chester makes, makes Chester. They took the sign down, the industry, packed up for the most part, and left along with the white folks. Mm-hmm. And we were here.

Right. Yeah. So I remember in the. The mid eighties watching folks who you, who I had known up to that point my entire life, right. Suddenly change. But as a kid watching my neighborhood descend into something that I don't recognize.

that really stuck with me and you still see the, the, it still is here, right?

All that stuff that I saw then the remnants of it still [00:30:00] exists

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): as you drive in my city. Yeah.

Many cities are still dealing with crack's residue

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): I mean I would call that cracks residue, you know, that like we are still dealing with the fallout from the epidemic even though, you know, we have seen this decline in that, you know, the rate of new drug users is nowhere near, you know what it was in the mid eighties and it's not recovering that.

We still deal with a lot of shame. We still deal with, um, abandoned communities that have been really divested from, and we still deal with a criminal justice system that was created to respond to crack that has not caught up with the fact, right, that the epidemic is over. That we are still policed, like we are in the midst of, of a crack epidemic.

But, you know, Jay Ray, I wanna circle back to something that you mentioned because, you know, something that, that, that I was able to connect in writing this book is that, [00:31:00] uh, the cities that were hard hit by crack were actually great migration cities, right? So I was inspired, you know, because when you look at the country, you know, so when we talk about the crack epidemic, we talk about black communities, we, you know, think.

As though there was this, you know, monolithic experience, but not every black community around the country had a crack epidemic that they happened at different times. But, you know, when I did the research and, and made a list of the cities that were hardest hit, you know, I saw, and I, I traveled to all these places, you know, in my research in 2018, I went to the hardest hit cities, but it was, uh, Newark, it was New York.

It was uh, Baltimore. It was dc. It was Oakland. It was Chicago. It was like, I mean, I'm talking about great migration cities. Yes. So

Black folks left the south for better opportunities to places that weren't prepared for and didn't want us there.

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): after doing the reporting and then kind of laying it out in this history, I was able to see really a [00:32:00] story of black people leaving the south for opportunity and leaving in droves and getting to cities that were not prepared for us and that didn't want us.

So we were met with. Shaky opportunity. We were met with poor housing that, you know, those of us that were able to, to really claw a little piece of something Right. To be able to like, you know, buy some homes and set up a neighborhood that we were in. Well, it felt like middle class neighborhoods, but they were working class neighborhoods that they mm-hmm.

Were held together by the fact that we could work. Yes. Yeah. And when the opportunities for work, right. In places like where you grew up went away. Yes. Yep. What we then, then what had been working class neighborhoods became ghettos. Yeah. They became places of concentrated poverty. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then you see the decline, right?

Yeah. Then you know that, that like, like these neighborhoods don't decline because crack was dropped in that they were [00:33:00] on the decline and that's why crack is able to take off in them. Yeah. There you go. And, um, And that for me, you know, that there were all of these connections that you're talking about, great migration cities that, that didn't really welcome black people.

And then, you know,

Black folks were committed holding communities together against big odds.

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): there were these big efforts in the seventies and eighties to elect black mayors. Yes. So almost 2 0 1, you start seeing as the white folks move out with white. Mm-hmm. Yep. Then we have population power and we say, let me get Dinkins in New York. Mm-hmm. Let me get, you know, Kenneth Gibson in, in, in New Jersey.

Let me get Tom, Tom Bradley in la I mean, literally to the one we, we really tried our damnedest to save our neighborhoods. But what happens if you don't have a tax base to actually respond to the issues? What happens if, you know, the jobs just don't come? And people understand that in the context of white Americans and what they're going through right now.

Right. They, you know, will talk into the blue in the face about [00:34:00] coal country. Yes. And how, you know, they're using opioids in coal country because coal's not coming back. Right. Or in the rust belt because the auto industry isn't coming back. But they don't wanna talk about all the factories that got closed down in big cities and left, um, black communities devastated and young black men without jobs.

And then you wonder why it is they wanna sell crack because I gotta, you gotta live and, and mm-hmm. Anybody that's been a black teenager understands that angst of trying to find your first job Yes. Of wanting to be in the world, wanting things. Right. Wanting to be able to buy your own things. Feeling the pressure that that puts on your family and being like, why won't Footlocker hire me?

Right. Why won't Applebee's hire me? Yes. And if I could just get a little something. To be comfortable. Right? Like, not even to be rich. The guys that were selling drugs for the most part were nickel and diamond. They were just trying to buy some sneakers. They were just trying to buy [00:35:00] a bike. You know what I mean?

And, and that's how we got caught up like that, that there were these social conditions that made it almost inevitable.

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): You know? Can we stay on that for a second? I, so, okay. The economic part of the, the whole crack epidemic. I'm so glad you brought up the, the neighborhood, the hood star, which is the drug dealer.

Mm-hmm. Um, which looking fly and feeling good is, is such a black thing. We love to look good. We love to feel good and, and there's nothing wrong with that. I, another story, I just remember talking about another migration. I'm part of the West Indian migration. Um, that happened in New York in the late seventies, early eighties.

Right. And so that's a community that I saw become part of the. Especially the Jamaicans [00:36:00] esp, um, become part of that, um, that economic loop within the community mm-hmm. Of bringing drugs or selling drugs in the community, but also that the Hood Star took care of the community at the same time.

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): It was different.

It was

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): different. But I remember my mom was like, okay, I knew what they looked like. They had on the silk shirts, the, the silk trousers, the um, the Travel Fox sneakers, the gines, the, the, the Cango slightly tilted to the side, the gold chain. Those, and those guys were solid. They were always driving a maxima, a tripped out Maxima.

And um, and that system was always knocking. And that was something to aspire to aspire to or somebody to look up to, especially if you were in the hip hop game. Let's just be honest. The hip, the, the, the drug lawyers, the, the, the hood stars as I like to call them, were the ones that would pay [00:37:00] for the concerts, right?

They would put on the concerts in the neighborhood. You ask any of our hip hop forefathers, the golden, the kids from the golden era who's paying them, you know what I'm saying? To show up at, at the high school cafeteria, the drug dealers, they were getting the drug dealers, they were getting paid. And it's like hip hop has had this, this precarious relationship with, um, with crack, with the, uh, crack epidemic because it was hurting us, but it was helping us to eat at the same time.

Yeah. And I think. Again, in your book, and I'm not saying this just because you're here and because you're the author of the book, but it was a really great, you've done a really great job of talking about that relationship, that love hate relationship that crack and, um, black communities had, uh, in the late eighties, early nineties.

And just, I just remember, you know, as a kid, those just say no PSAs by Nancy [00:38:00] Reagan and her and Nancy Reagan popping up on different strokes. Yes. When I, when I read that part in the book, I was gassed. I was like,

Jay Ray (@jayrayisthename): I forgot until

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): I, Donovan knew that Donovan Reme researched that and found that out. I remember seeing that.

Yes. I remember seeing her standing next to Run DMC and just being, this is a weird picture and so. It took you back? It just, no, it took me back and it just reminded me of that relationship that we've had with this drug. It's almost like, um, I don't know, like a, a, a hunter and a a, a wild animal. It's like we see each other and we kind of respect each other from afar until it gets too close to, to your home and just, yeah.

Those memories will be unlocked When you read this book

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): that like you highlight something really interesting and why, you know,

There was a tenion between what was said about the crack epidemic and those who lived through it.

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): those of us that actually like lived the experience have a different relationship to the epidemic than what people on the outside might have and [00:39:00] how, there was one of the reasons why I wrote the book, right, was this, this tension between what was said about the crack epidemic and the way that I had experienced it.

And you bring up a figure that I, um, that I refer to as the gentleman dealer. Mm-hmm. Which is that, you know, when you look at the seventies and sixties that. Drug dealing was kind of like a player thing, right? Mm-hmm. It was like, mm-hmm. Yes. You were like a guy that like went to the party and you were a smooth guy and fun to be around.

And that allowed you to sell drugs usually in nightclubs, right? Mm-hmm. And in places where people hung out. So like, you needed to look slick and you needed to look good, and you needed to be attractive for people to wanna come to you and feel comfortable spending money with you. And then there would be this reputation, right?

That you were a guy that had money and that, you know, maybe you sold a little, we maybe you sold, you know what I mean? And that, that was the dynamic.

The "gentlemen dealer" gets locked up, and the streets are destabilized

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): So we had always, right, had that relationship to the gentleman [00:40:00] dealer in our neighborhoods. That guy, that was who you went to that you knew was connected to the underworld, right?

Mm-hmm. And he still was in relationship to people in the community. But what you see with the response to the crack epidemic, right, is that that wave of guys get locked up early. Right, right. Yeah. And then they are replaced then by waves and waves of typically younger guys. Yes. Who are not a part of that lifestyle and don't have a certain code of ethics.

And not only that, but they're not dealing drugs indoors. They are doing open market drug dealing. Mm-hmm. Right? Yes. So they're on street corners, which means that they're competing. Mm-hmm. Which then means that they have to then enforce turf. Yes. And you get turf wars. So then drug dealing becomes something that the average drug dealer is not somebody that's player.

The average drug dealer is somebody that is gangster. And so [00:41:00] then there is this shift. So then when Nancy Reagan or somebody's telling you this is what a drug dealer is, or you know, Hillary Clinton's talking about super predators, right. We're like, uh, it's kind of more complicated than that.

Transition

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Donovan X. Ramsey on "When Crack Was King" as a testament to Black resiliance

Jay Ray (@jayrayisthename): Donovan. There is so much to this book. Um, and we are just scratching the surface. Like I have at least four other topics that are swelling in my head. Um, but that's why, um, bolster Daniel and I agree that people definitely need to pick this book up.

Um, so I recently, uh, returned to my hometown about three years ago to care for my parents. And so I actually often see folks, cuz you talked about Lenny making it to the other side, right? Lenny's still here to tell her story. I get to see people. Here that I'm [00:42:00] just like, yes, come on now. You know? And watching them work and I could give them a hug and be like, they asked me about my mom and all of that.

And I'm like, oh my gosh. Like you made it, this person made it. Right. Yeah. Um, so black folks are resilient and innovative. Uh, so your book I think is also a testament to like black resilience to make it through this thing that a lot of people didn't want us to make it out of, right? Yeah. So what one, what's your thought on, you know, this, this story, these stories as a tool for, uh, documenting black resilience?

And what do you hope folks take away

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): from this book? Mm-hmm. I hope folks take away from the book that [00:43:00] something like the crack epidemic happens because of unattended to devastation. Things that we could wrap our hands around and really minimize or prevent. And also that black folks survive the crack epidemic, like you said, because we are resilient, because our story in America starts with us surviving the middle passage.

Mm-hmm. It starts with us surviving the horrors of the plantation. It starts with us surviving, um, um, the, the, the horrors of Jim Crow. And even if you talk about, you know, other black ethnics folks that, you know, immigrate here, They come from places that have plantations too. And they survive that and they survive the distance of being away from family and building a new life and a new place, and joining a new community and being different, but finding a way to like find some commonality.[00:44:00]

So, uh,

Black people do community better than anybody.

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): we do community better than anybody, right? That we created community in the bowels of slave ships. We, you know, created cousins on plantations. Yes. And that is what kept us alive. And that, you know, I don't want people to look at the crack epidemic and think that it was some sort of failure as much as it was a trial.

And we are in many ways, stronger in the broken places. You know, it's like when you break a bone, they say that after it heals, you will never break that bone in the same place again. Because when it fuses back together, it's so much stronger than the rest of the bone. So, That's the way that we are, we are stronger in the places that we were broken.

And um, maybe as a last little piece on that, what I would say is that, um, what we did was, you know, that we [00:45:00] didn't solve the crack epidemic overnight, but it was these little acts of community care. It was grandmothers taking in grandchildren, you know, while their kids were going through it. It was churches, you know, housing people and um, uh, you know, putting, you know, gun, gun buybacks and stop the violence, you know, events and campaigns, that, that's what we call harm reduction.

And another word for that is just keeping each other alive. And don't discount the power of, you can't stay here for a week, but I can give you a place to sleep tonight. You know, don't, don't discount the power of. Let me buy you something to eat cuz I don't want to give you some money, but I can feed you tonight or maybe I can give you some money if that keeps you from knocking some old lady over the head.

Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? That that's the stuff that we did and we survived it without any [00:46:00] help because we did things like that.

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): You know? Wow. Again, leave it to an author, a journalist, to be able to, to put it all together for us to take in that weight. Because I'm still thinking about this line, about community and taking care of each other.

We didn't do right by Whitney Houston at a time when she really need us.

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): And before we wrap up, I know we are a music podcast and we, we talk heavily about a lot of the artists that we love that were part of that, uh, movement to make us feel good and feel better. Um, but sadly a lot of those artists, um, suc, succumb to their own. Demons. Mm-hmm. Um, they needed to feel good too.

Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. Um, do you feel like, thinking back among, amongst those, um, artists, whether it be in hip hop or r and b, black artists specifically, did we, [00:47:00] do we as a community, do right by them if it comes out that they have a habit.

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): Yeah. I think that, that we have not loved our people the way that we should because of shame, because of fear of.

Of that spreading onto us and it touching us and being marked by this thing that's so ugly in my mind goes immediately to, you know, Whitney Houston. You know, Whitney Houston is the exact profile of somebody that used crack during the period. She mm-hmm. Uh, grew up in Newark, which was a crack city, is a great migration city.

She was young black woman during the early eighties. She had a very high stressful life and career. At one point she became isolated from her community mm-hmm. And [00:48:00] became vulnerable. Right. She like, needed to feel good and I think that at the time, because we were still dealing with so much, the only way that we could really respond was shame and ridicule.

But that lady was going through and, and she gave us so much. You know what I mean? And that, you know, we, I don't think that we took care of her the way that we could have, you know, I don't, I don't like people to make fun of Whitney Houston. You know, she's, she's like one of my ones, you know what I mean?

Like that. Yeah. That shit not funny, you know, it's one way that I would put it. Now, now what I will say is that she was a character and like to cut up. Yeah. So, you know, it's also like a part of that that feels like, oh, you know, that's your auntie that, you know, is, is like going through something. But I, you know, wish that we had, um, appreciated the changes that she was going through, you know, as Michelle from down the street, you know, would say, which was that, you know, she was trying to work through something and, you [00:49:00] know, she got, you know, in recovery for a while.

But, you know, I, I think that. You know, it's very well documented that one of the effects that cocaine has on the body is that it really weakens the organs, especially the heart. And Whitney ultimately, according to the autopsies, you know, died of a heart attack, you know, when she was in the bathtub, and that all those years of cocaine use caught up with her.

Mm-hmm. You know, and I think that, um, you know, it really is a cautionary tale, but I'm also inspired by Whitney Houston, you know, because she made incredible music and she struggled through her artistry and she struggled through her addiction, you know, and she ultimately, um, uh, was, is, is gone from us too soon, but it doesn't take away any of the beauty of, of her and her story and what she gave us.

And we can still, and like she can still be our princess. [00:50:00] You know, that like, you know, that we fell in love with when she sang, I want to Dance with Somebody. And we felt, you know, the hurt and the pain in her voice when she sang songs like, you know, why does it hurt so bad? You know what I mean? That she gave us the, like, the like width of that, all of that black gospel expression that she made popular and it still lives on today through people who don't even know that they're trying to sing like Whitney Houston.

You know what I mean? So, so I honor that, that like, I, you know, that, that, that, that honor Perfect. Princess Whitney, but I also honor, you know, hi Whitney. Mm-hmm. Yes. You know what I mean? Because all of it was her. Mm-hmm. And, um, and I think that, um, I hope that today that, that, that, that was to happen to a, you know, a pop superstar that we would respond differently.

Um, you know, even if we can't help them personally, that we would just hold a place of, of compassion in our heart. [00:51:00]

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): I love that. I absolutely love that. And while you were talking about Whitney Houston, the voice. Yeah. Um, this question popped in my mind.

Who would Donovan like to narrate "When Crack Was King" in his wildest dreams?

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): Um, kind of take it, lighten it up a little bit, and take it to another era.

Okay. We're living in the audiobook era. Mm-hmm. Right? Yes. Donovan x Ramsey. If you had a choice in your wildest dreams, who would narrate the audio version of when Crack was King?

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): Well, I'm gonna break it to you. I narrated the audio book.

Jay Ray (@jayrayisthename): That's what I'm talking about. That's dead on

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): there. You know what I mean?

You know what I, I, what I will say is that I would love, like there are like lots of great voices out there. I love Andre Holland as an actor and I think that he has a type of like, you know, notably black vocal expression cuz you know, person has, has to sound black, right? You know, like, In, in, in, like whatever that means, right?

That it needs to be a timber, [00:52:00] just an element to the voice that it feels like, okay, you actually went through this. But I read the book myself because there are parts of the book where I write about my experience, where I write about, you know, the loved ones that I lost to the epidemic, um, where I, where I write about the sort of, you know, trauma and shame that I had to work through about growing up in a neighborhood where that was my experience.

And then, you know, going into all of these other places in the world and that being where I'm from, you know, and having to reconcile that, you know, and to make meaning of it. Um, so it was really important for me to read the book myself and to, and to, um, and to embody the words because it's a statement to say, you know, I'm a kid that grew up.

You know, raised by a young single mother in a neighborhood that was hard [00:53:00] hit by crack, that was able to go onto Morehouse in Columbia and write for the New York Times and all of these great places. And I was able to do it not despite where I came from, but because of where I came from. And I'm taking all those people with me, you know, that like I'm writing this book because I wanted to take all of our stories with me.

And because I'm not gonna let somebody else tell the story, and I'm not gonna let journalism tell me that I have to be whatever they think objective is and not tell my story too, that I can tell these story while also telling my story and that the story that I tell about crack has more meaning because of what I went through.

So, um, that's a long way of saying I read it and I'm, it was, it was hard to do, but I'm very happy that I did.

Closing

Jay Ray (@jayrayisthename): Donovan, we are happy that you not only read your audio book yourself, but that you wrote this incredible [00:54:00] book. Um, so when Crack was King by Donovan x Ramsey is officially out on July 11th.

Wherever you get books and whatnot, you should pick this book up. Um, Donovan, thank you so much for being with us, uh, for this very special episode of Cue Points. Um, where can folks, uh, stay in contact with you, where, what's all the info

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): so folks can, can reach out? Yeah, please follow me on all platforms.

I'm Donovan X Ramsey. Um, it's just my name, d o n o v a n x r a m s e y. And thank y'all for having me. Seriously, thank you for these, uh, amazing, uh, questions and this like fantastic conversation.

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): Just to echo Jay Ray, again, thank you for writing this book , it's a living document that, that we can still look towards and still be able to pull out stories that can still, um, resonate with us [00:55:00] today. And also, Help us not to repeat certain mistakes. Yes, yes. But also is a testament to a lot of lives that have been lost Yes.

To this epidemic. You have honored a lot of people by writing this book. So we thank you and we thank you Donovan x Ramsey for being on Q Points podcast. Uh, Jay Ray, I don't think there's anything more to say, but we have. This has been an amazing, uh, episode. Thank you again to Donovan x Ramsey, and to your team for working this out and, and making this happen.

J Ray, what do I say? Every episode in this life, you have a choice. You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play. I'm DJ Sir

Donovan Ramsey (@donovanxramsey): Daniel. My name is Jay Ray.

DJ Sir Daniel (@djsirdaniel): That's Donovan x Ramsey, and this has been Cue Points podcast, dropping the needle on black music history.

We will see you [00:56:00] on the next go round, please peace.

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