John Crooms on Archiving Atlanta's Black Music Nightlife

Transcript

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[00:00:00] Intro Theme

[00:00:04] Welcome to the Episode

Sir Daniel: Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast. I am DJ Sir Daniel

Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray, y'all, sometimes known by my government as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III. And Sir Daniel, I'm wearing a hat

Sir Daniel: You know, I was just about to say, Jay Ray, you pulled out the Kangol on me. You've, you've got the fresh polo on. I feel like you're, you, you're here for the... It's like picture day at school, and you pulled out all the stops 'cause you know you're about to be captured, and you know you want... You don't wanna bring home pictures that your mom is gonna be like, "I can't send any of these to your aunties."

So you gotta look, you gotta look presentable. You gotta look good. And, you know, photography, I will say this. So I was thinking about this when I knew that we had our guest coming. I said, I thought to myself, I said that the, aside from actors, musicians, and even DJs, you know who really has the juice around here, especially in Atlanta?

Photographers. Photographers have a, a key,

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel: and we'll talk about this key, a key that unlocks many doors, um, around the world, period. Not just here in Atlanta, but around the world. And Jay Ray, our guest, is a celebrated documentarian here, not just here in Atlanta, but I, I... And I say this because, uh, this is where I've become familiar with him, where I met him.

I do not remember an, an event, a music-centered e- event here in Atlanta that I did not see this man working, and I'm talking about in my early days, in my early 20s.

Jay Ray: Yeah,

Sir Daniel: As a matter of fact, one of the very first events that I, I plainly remember seeing this gentleman was FunkJazz Kafé in its, in, in maybe, like, its second or third form.

So... And that's been around for a very long time. But, uh, Jay Ray, I w- I'm gonna leave it to you because Jay Ray, you ha- you have a kinship with this gentleman because you two... And people forget this. You, you're a photographer as well.

Jay Ray: Yeah,

Sir Daniel: I want you to intr- introduce our guest

Jay Ray: you know what? I am going to introduce our guest, and then we're gonna talk about that very thing because he needs to be in the room when I

say the thing that I need to say. But, um, Queue Points family, it is our esteemed pleasure to welcome a historian, archivist, photographer to us all, truly the community.

[00:02:42] Introducing John Crooms

Jay Ray: Uh, John Crooms is here with us. Brother, welcome to Queue Points. How you doing?

John Crooms: I'm doing fine. Thank you guys for having me.

Jay Ray: Oh.

Sir Daniel: Absolutely.

John Crooms: me, I don't know.

[00:02:56] A Personal Thank You from Jay Ray

Jay Ray: yes, all of that. Um, so John, I'ma, I'ma do this properly because I haven't ever been... We haven't have ever had the opportunity for me to say this. when I moved to Atlanta, um, I was not a photographer. Um, I moved to Atlanta working in corporate America, um, and it took me a minute to figure it out, and fell into photography later, but there was an important moment, and I pulled this moment, and I wanted to show it here, uh, on the show.

you took this photo of me in 2011. I arrived in Atlanta in 2010. I had not really been, like, out there, out there like that, and you snapped this photo, and I was like, "Wow, that is really beautiful." This night was some random night at a spot that's no longer there on Courtland, and I didn't meet you that night, but I met this photo. And you as an individual have always been super welcoming, um, to, one, the folks who are experiencing a party, thank you for that. Like, and you were also as super gracious, I'll use a I statement, to me as, like, a new photographer I feel like just allowing me to be in space and photographing some of the same spaces that you were in. so I just wanna say thank you, man, for the inspiration, but also the, like, lessons. I was, like, learning things through you and how to do photography in the way that it, you know, that you do it, and so I just wanna say thanks, man

John Crooms: You're very welcome, sir.

[00:05:14] Quick Transition

[00:05:15] Advice for New Photographers

Jay Ray: we're gonna get into some of your history in a minute, but that idea of like new photographers coming into spaces, right? Um, and desiring to capture these moments. Um, what advice would you give them if they're new? And also, how should those people be interacting with other photographers?

Like, what, what advice would you give new folks that are coming out there, and also how should they be interacting with folks like you?

John Crooms: What advice I would give? Uh, just do you and be you. I mean, it'll take... Yes, it's gonna take a minute for you to find your niche or, you know, your thing, whatever you like to photograph. I mean, could easily fell into photographing ducks, you know, at Piedmont Park. You know? But I fell into photographing, you know, the, the, the, the club life and, and the nightlife, the undergr- the quote, unquote, "underground scene."

So, it's gonna take a... It'll take you a minute. Um, definitely research, especially now on the internet, Instagram and, and other things. You can find folks who might be c- might be d- dealing with the stuff that you wanna deal with. So you can look at them and check out their... check out them, check out their style, check out how they're doing it. And again, back again with, with social media, you can also now reach out and talk and ask people questions and stuff. You know, please, y'all, my, my thing is like, please interact, engage. Interact, engage, engage, engage. I mean, if, if you see, if you see me at the d- on the streets, the grocery store, or at a party or whatever, you come up, speak and say hi, and ask a question.

I could try to answer it the best I can. Or, you know, set up some time that we can, you know, figure it out and work it out. So I mean, yeah.

Jay Ray: That's dope

[00:07:08] Birthday Reflections & Legacy

Sir Daniel: And so speaking of being out in these streets, um, as we record this interview, um, we're in your birthday season. We're in your birthday season.

John Crooms: last Thursday

Jay Ray: All

Sir Daniel: exactly. And, um, la- at the time of this recording, the night before you were at the Listening Room, which is has become quite the hot spot, you know, now for, um, the DJs that are, you know, that are being celebrated, um, by Big X.

And, um, last night they turned the spotlight on you, and he shouted you out. And just because you are so respected here in the city because you've shown so much love to the DJ community, um, as you celebrate another birthday, another milestone, like what are you most thankful for, and which part of your legacy are you most proud of?

John Crooms: I guess I'm more s- I guess I'm most thankful for just the community itself. The, um I, I hate calling it the underground community, but I guess, you know, uh, what did Kemi Bennings say? Yeah, I, you know, the, the poets, artists, and madmen of,

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

John Crooms: of Atlanta or the certain group of them that, that, that hang.

I'm, I'm, I'm grateful for them 'cause we are kind of like, we are kind of like a community as in, you know, we do try to help each other out, we do try to network within, we try to, you know, if I can't do it, I'm gonna throw the bone to somebody else. I mean, so I'm, I'm definitely thankful for them. Um, my legacy, uh, I'm, I'm work- I'm...

Let, let me finish the book first, then I can... 'Cause that's, that's the, the, the, the, well, my, uh, my hill to die on or the monkey on my back is, uh, you know, gonna do a book? When, when you gonna do a book? We're covering all the stuff you've done." And I'm just like, it's, it's, it's, it's more emotionally draining than most people think,

Sir Daniel: I would imagine so, 'cause that's years, that's decades of film to go through. 'Cause I remember the, the book, the, um, the book that you, uh, put out during the pandemic or after the pandemic,

John Crooms: Right

Sir Daniel: which I'm featured in, by the way. Um, and, uh, and, and I was like, wow, this is, you know, it, it, it's smaller and I was like, I know there's gotta be more.

So I can only imagine how daunting of a task it is to put that together

John Crooms: was just, that was that moment from 2019 to 2020, you know,

[00:09:43] Transition​

[00:09:50] Three Decades Behind the Lens: Analog to Digital

John Crooms: I have been shooting since like officially '93, '94-ish.

Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm. I'm te-

Jay Ray: Wow

Sir Daniel: yeah

John Crooms: that's a l- you know... And '93, '94 was, you know, that was, those were the analog

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: So

Sir Daniel: Absolutely

John Crooms: to, geez, what?

2000, you know, till, not till 2000s where I've like, I'm fully, fully digital. I mean, so yeah, to go through, to go through those negatives. I mean, like, you know, like now you just, you know, you pop in, you, you pop in your, your, your hard drive and you look, "Oh, uh, May 20. Okay, boom. Oh yeah, we were here. Oh, here's that pic.

Here, you know, here's, here's the event.

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: Here's Daniel, there's Jay Ray, boom, boom." E- you know, shoot the email and then you're done, you know? But back then, oh God. Yeah, you know.

Sir Daniel: Man, I can only imagine that because... And, and I wanna stay here for a second because like I said, Jay Ray, I, I promise you, like right when I came out of high school, I, I was-- I graduated high school in '93 and started my journey in f- in figuring out this Atlanta nightlife around that time, and I promise you, I would see Mr.

Crooms out and about, like you said, crouched down in the corner, probably changing out film. Film, kids.

Jay Ray: kids

Sir Daniel: not c- not cards, not digital cards, actual film, changing it out in his photography. But I, and I'm so glad you brought this up. I'm so interested to hear what stands out to you about how parties and, and live concerts have evolved in the past 30-plus years here in At- in Atlanta

John Crooms: Hmm

Sir Daniel: your point of view

[00:11:37] How Phones Changed the Party Experience

John Crooms: Well, I would say the biggest change would be, um, nobody seems to enjoy the moment anymore. Everybody's b- everybody's on their phones. like, I'm looking at it from pers- from the perspective of, you know, 'cause people like, "Well, you have a camera. You take pictures." I'm like, yeah, but I'm kinda looking at this, like, kinda historically, like, trying to tell that story, you know? So when people say that this did, this did or did not happen in Atlanta, we could, we could d- refute or, or confirm by saying, "Oh, here's a picture." Boom. Most people now, they're just trying to, you know, m- you know, "Hey, I'm an influencer," and it's, you know, they're in, they're in their way. I'm looking at them like, shoot a two...

I'm like, you're shooting a two-hour concert on your phone. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, do you have enough space? Like,

Jay Ray: Right

John Crooms: can't even, I can't even give you no, that, that, that, you know, that much time or space. I mean, I, I do it as well, but, like, you know, if I do a video on Instagram, I'm try- you only gonna get 60 seconds from me. This is a taste of where you should be at right now. Up, you know, and, and then I w- and, and those are the responses I would get. "Where you at? It look like a vibe. You need to let me know next time you do this," you know? So it's like, damn, you know, that, that 60 seconds that, that, that you saw, you know, is, is, is going to, you know, it's gonna make you think, oh, damn, well next time I need to look, ch- you know, keep an eye on my emails to see when the next Funk Jazz or the High Museum or Ryan Pullman or, you know, whatever, you know, House in the Park, The Weekend, whatever's going on, I need to know when that is.

So, so, you know, and, and that's h- that's why I feel like I want... purpose is just give you a little t- like the drug dealer. Give you a little taste,

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

John Crooms: get you

Jay Ray: Yeah.

John Crooms: you

Sir Daniel: Yeah

[00:13:21] Rediscovering Lost Moments in the Archive

Jay Ray: Ooh, you know what? That brings up something interesting, um, John, in particular staying back, uh, in this moment in time, like, uh, pre-digital and going back, and you going back and looking at some of the analog stuff. Is there anything that you have stumbled upon in your h- in your photography history that you're like, "Oh, wow, I didn't know that I had that," um, that you're kind of seeing now, um, as you are preparing for, you know, your book and all of that? Anything that's kinda come up that's a surprise?

John Crooms: people actually. That's, so certain people, when you put that picture up, well, you

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: first time I saw, I'm sitting there like, "Where the hell was that at?"

Jay Ray: Yeah.

John Crooms: know,

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: and, and, and, and

Sir Daniel: That's a great

John Crooms: it's, it's, yeah. But, but, like, um, it's funny because I get surprised the people that have crossed my lens before I actually really, really knew the person, know?

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: it's just like, you know, d- you know, it could be a random thing that's just like, "Oh, that w- oh, wow." And, and, and, you know, that person's not paying attention to me, I'm not paying attention to them, but somehow they came across, I hit the button at the right time, and, you know. And you, you, you know, you could've been dancing at that moment.

You could've been, you could've just walked through the door. I mean, whatever. It's just, and like I said, how people just cross my lens, I, I guess. And, and, and, and, I, you know, I don't think about it. Five, six years later I might be looking for something else, "Oh, goddamn.

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: you know, you know, "th- there's Sir Daniel spinning at the such and such.

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: that happen?" You know, "There's Jay Ray at the... How, wh- was there?"

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: even say that sometimes. Like, but, and I, I blame that on my old age. You know, not my old age, but, you know, getting, getting, older and mature and wiser uh, and so forth.

Jay Ray: Y- and picking up, and Sir Dame I'm gonna give it back to you in a second, but picking up on that too, uh, John, what is so remarkable about that is as the subject, have cap- you captured this moment that instantly put me back in that room. I like, I'm able to like, to day, that is across the street from the Hilton on Courtland.

The, I don't know what that's called now, but it's next to the Hertz. You know what I'm saying?

John Crooms: Yeah. Oh, okay.

Sir Daniel: Oh, was that 201 Courtland? 201 Courtland?

John Crooms: no,

Sir Daniel: No.

John Crooms: across the street from that.

Sir Daniel: Okay

John Crooms: this was a spot that opened up... Oh, yeah, and it, yeah, you right,

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: see, I just can't think of the name right

Jay Ray: Yeah. Yep, I remember that night. And, and so, um, there were so many things from that night that snowballed into the work that I ended up doing in the house community later. Um, but literally that was the night. So that moment put me right back there. So you create, you capture these memories, uh, for, for folks, and that's, like, amazing

John Crooms: Oh, thank

[00:16:26] Why House Music Over Hip-Hop

Sir Daniel: Yeah. I, and along those lines, Jay Ray, as, as you were talking, I was just thinking about all of those events that have, um, they've evolved over the years, but you just mentioned specifically, like John, I- you tend to, and, and let me know if I'm incorrect here, but you tend to gravitate a lot more to the house events, right?

Or you tend to shoot those more. I'm wondering, is there something attractive, more attractive about the energy that the house music parties have and the people that are at house music parties have that, that com- in comparison to other parties and other events that may just be more hip hop or not even just hip hop, but any kind of event that you're, you come out to, to shoot

John Crooms: Well, the pr- the hip-hop situation and, you know, it, it's, it's, it's, it's the, the door drama and politics that turned me off,

Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm.

John Crooms: So, and if... Who you with? Who called you? I don't understand. Because like, eh, when I first started this, y- you know, people were not friendly towards the camera, period. are you

with? Who you... You know, you, you had to be, either be with some, you know, the big magazines, The

Sir Daniel: Okay

John Crooms: the... And if you weren't with them, it's 101 questions and 101, you know, and, and, uh, you know, no picture. No, no, you know, everybody was doing whatever they were doing. A- and so it just, it turned, you- you know, it's, I'm, I'm tired of dealing with the drama, I'm tired of making the phone calls, I'm tired of, you know. And you go into the house events and it's a little bit more welcoming. Less door drama, less, less politics, less, you know, able to make a connection with, with a Kemet, with a Ramon, with a Kai Salah, you know, or whoever else is coming. You, you know, you, like I said, you just have less of it com- compared to like dealing with the, in the hip-hop community. you know. And then I'm a type of person, man, you ain't gotta tell me twice. You tell me something, I'm gonna leave you, I'm gonna leave you the heck alone. Um, and fast-forward to like now where a couple years ago Cat walks up to me and he's like, "Hey, man. Hey, John." I was like, "Yo, what's up?" noticed something. Um, um, I'm in none of your pictures and stuff. What's going on with that?" And I was like, "Well, about five years ago you told me don't take no pictures of you."

Sir Daniel: Oh, wow, bro

John Crooms: So I, you know, so I, you know, I, I respected those wishes. I, you know, I, I don't know what you into, what you, what, what your thing is, but, you know, you said don't take no...

Hey, I ain't, that's what you ain't taking no pictures. And then, but then he s- he looked at me and like stopped and, and then, then he was like, "But, but, hey man, but that means I'm not in the history." I was like, "Oh."

Jay Ray: Hmm.

Sir Daniel: Hmm.

John Crooms: Oh, you get it now.

Jay Ray: Yeah. Yeah

John Crooms: man, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'm..." All right, no prob- you know, no problem. And I mean, to the, tw- we, we cool as s**t today, but it was just like, it took, it took, I don't know, it took him having that a-ha moment, you know, realizing like I'm not trying to put nobody on blast, I'm not trying to, you know, I'm just... And then he realized, he's like, "Damn, I'm not part of the history. I'm not..." And, uh, he ended up in my, i- in the, the, uh, the COVID book, and he was like, you know, "Oh, dawg, man, see, so now I'm in the history now." Now, you know, he had that, you know.

Sir Daniel: Wow

John Crooms: Yeah. But, you know. So yeah, uh, you know, I'm like, uh, like, like water. Take the path of least resistance

just

[00:20:05] Transition

Sir Daniel: ​Uh, and now

[00:20:13] The Power and Responsibility of a Photographer

Sir Daniel: Jay Ray and I were talking about this before you came on. Photographers and what I've noticed, you all have to strike this balance of being, of being seen, but mostly being stealth, especially when you're, um, especially when you're working and because you don't wanna take away from what is happening.

You don't wanna take away from people's experience. You just wanna capture it. And I, I find that so interesting, that it's so funny how this, in this day and age, a lot pe- people have a lot more FOMO, um, because of how instantaneous like, um, seeing people's pictures and videos are now. And so a lot of people have more FOMO.

But something you said, the whole thing about having, um, power because if you didn't, if you weren't backed by a magazine or if you're not part of the Atlanta Journal Constitution, I, I find that photographers do hold the key because there is a power in the photography. Like when did you realize like you carried both clout and responsibility of being a photographer, being, and the responsibility of being a, a historian and a documentarian?

John Crooms: When did I fi- ooh, gosh, when did I find that out? Hmm. I'm s- I seriously am kinda stu- stumped on that one. But there was, there was some celebrity event I was at, know, and trying to think, was it, was it TLC or, or, or Escape or something? Somebody. It was something going on. And, and, and, I quote unquote "snuck in" or whatever, or I got in on some, you know, you know, "Don't ask no questions but I'm here."

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

John Crooms: and security rolled up on me, and I was like, "Ah, s**t, got caught. All right." You know, and I was, you know, I'm, I'm being on the humble like, "All right. Well, I'm about to leave." And they're like, "Yeah. Well, they need you over there." So, so she said, I, I, I, breath back up. Where, where they need me at now?

All right. I'm going over there you know, and, and, and, and, and get me some bottled water or something. Give me, you know... Yeah, I, I ain't say that, but I mean, but it was like, you know, 'cause I was like, " Ah, s**t, I got caught. Damn it," you know. And 'cause I've, I've been thrown out a few places. N- n- nothing major, or I've been stopped.

You know, you can't take no pictures or you can't do, you know. And it's funny even saying that it's wondering, like, when the so- you know, the stories are starting to be told about Atlanta, you know, that someone did a Freaknik thing. Um, uh, and they asked me to be a part of it. I just, at that time I felt I didn't have what they were looking for, so I didn't really quite deal with that or participate with that. Um, like, yeah, the story's being told. So when people start talking, and especially that, that golden era when, when Kaya, before it became Visions and, and, and even, even that whole transition, like, they capture that? Did anybody capture it? 'Cause like it, it was, it was a pain in the butt to, to deal with some of these spots and, uh, like I said earlier, it just, it was just a pain in the butt. So did anybody get anything or, you know,

Sir Daniel: Hmm.

John Crooms: anything, anyone, you know, who, you know, who was the man back there? Who was, who was, who was the, the it girl? Who was the... We, we can't answer that question,

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Sir Daniel: But I'm sure that has to have

John Crooms: remember, don't have, don't have phones either, so you can't say,

Sir Daniel: You know,

John Crooms: "Right."

[00:23:40] Name Recognition at the Door

Sir Daniel: such and such. But was there-- do you have a, "Listen, I'm John Crooms," moment? Have you had one of those like, "I'm John Crooms," and they'd be like, "Oh, yes sir."

John Crooms: Yeah, that happened. Um Oh, God, whose party was that? That happened one time. I went to, got to the door, but h- but here's the funny twist to it. "Yeah, I'm John Crooms, you know, the photographer." "Oh, you're already here." I'm like, "Excuse me?"

Jay Ray: Whoa,

Sir Daniel: Get outta here

Jay Ray: in under Jon Crooms' name.

John Crooms: yeah, yeah." I

Sir Daniel: C

John Crooms: okay." And, uh, uh, where was I? And there was another event, um, shoot, who was that? And I was like, "Yeah, I'm," I get to the door, "Yeah, you know, I'm one of the photographers, John Crooms," and, you know, the young lady couldn't find me, and then somebody who, who's standing behind me, you know, like she was like, "Well, what was your name again?" And the, the person standing behind me is like, "How long you been in this city, sis?

You don't know who this is?"

Jay Ray: Exactly.

John Crooms: I'm,

Sir Daniel: Period. Exactly

Jay Ray: I would've been me. I'd be like, "You don't know who this is?"

Sir Daniel: Same

John Crooms: you right."

Sir Daniel: same thing

John Crooms: yeah, I'm like, "Well, I appreciate it, but ca- could we cool till, till we get in?" You know? So 'cause I'm always kind of on the hums about shit, 'cause I, I, I look like, again, like I look at it like, um, you know, at the end of the day it is just an event or a party.

There's, there's, there'll be another one in another week. they don't want to act, if they would act a fool, I'm fine with that. I've, like I've been, I've been s- oh, I, I, I, I got too many to name or number about. You see, I'm, and I'm being, I'm being a little PC. I'm not mentioning the event that it happened at. I could tell you the event, I could tell you the person but I'm, I'm not.

[00:25:17] Following the DJ: Choosing Where to Be

Jay Ray: Yeah. Y- um, so many things are, uh, running through my head, but I'm gonna land on this question. An- when you are... Well, more importantly, John, you are omnipresent. How do you schedule how to be? I feel like you're always present.

Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm

Jay Ray: know I'm in the right spot if John Crooms is there, and I feel like John Crooms is always there, so I always feel like I'm definitely in the right spot, 'cause John Crooms is here. do you, one, make decisions on where to go, and how do you find out of the different places? Because I have seen you at a variety of different kinds of events. How do you figure all of that out?

John Crooms: Um, the easy way is go by the DJ,

Jay Ray: Okay

John Crooms: So if... Right, you know, we, we, you, we, we have, we have our favorites. My, my problem with that is, like, like, I like, I like everybody or I like, you know, I'm, I'm... Everybody don't have to be Kemist, you know what I mean?

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: Everybody don't have to be, everybody don't have to be Ron Pullman.

Everybody d- don't, everything doesn't have to be The Listening Room. Everything don't have to be the... You know, um, I go by the DJs. If I, if I like your music, I like your vibe, and if it's a, you know, it's not a hectic night like a Friday or Saturday night, you know, I'll be like, "All right, I'ma pop through here for a second.

I'ma pop through there." Um, know, like I said, one of my biggest problems is, like, uh, uh, too m- too many things going on, not enough me or not enough time in, time in the night to, to, to go check it out. So I try to, to go by the DJ, try to check it out, you know, I try to s- support the best way I know how. And I, you know, I always, and I've always told people, it's like, you know, when you least expect it, that's how I'm, that's when I might pop up on you and check it out, bob my head and, and then break, you know? And it house, neo-soul, hip-hop, whatever, I try to, you know- Try to, you know, to, you know, to, to, make my presence known. Just, you know

Sir Daniel: A-

Jay Ray: Yeah,

Sir Daniel: and it's so funny you should be talking about prioriti- you prioritizing events because it's so true. I always say, uh, esp- here in Atlanta, Atlanta has just the per- the knack of scheduling 50 events on the same weekend. Everybody has this, has an event on the same weekend.

John Crooms: the best example

Sir Daniel: This weekend is crazy. This weekend is crazy.

[00:27:56] Quick Transition

[00:27:58] Paradise Garage & Musical Roots

John Crooms: Um, uh, y- you, you were gonna, I was, I was gonna have, I was gonna talk about the, uh, the Paradise Garage and all that fun-ness, but you know.

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: Um,

Sir Daniel: talk about it. Shoot

John Crooms: Well, um, I mean, no, because like, as you get older, you, you find out that people knew about a lot of things you

Jay Ray: Yes

John Crooms: know, you know, you, you, you might not remember it 'cause...

Okay, back, well, my Garage story. Uh, I'd never been to The Garage. Okay? Um, I guess c- you know, my age and so forth, I really couldn't... But I have an aunt who's four years older than me, so when she went to her prom, I think they ended up at The Garage.

Jay Ray: Get it, Auntie

John Crooms: And, and, and so, so, and, and so I remember hearing that, you know, so, you know, I, I'm walking, I guess, walking through my house, going to the bathroom or something, and I'm hear- and hearing the word The Garage.

Yeah, The Garage, Garage, Garage. And then bl- yeah, well, they used to call it the Gayrage,

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

John Crooms: the Gayrage. You know, so y- you're hearing about, you know... And, okay, I heard, I, I heard about this place, but, you know, I'm, at that age and in that time, I wasn't thinking about that stuff. So fast-forward, you know, five or six years later, when I'm a, a teenager, yeah, when I'm, like, a teenager about to go off to college and so forth, you know, i, I, th- then I still had, I had heard about it, know, but you heard about it, knew what it was, knew about the infamous club, even knew a little bit, heard about, heard the name Larry Levan,

but again, kinda in the back of my mind and stuff.

So fast-forward, in school, uh, I, I was registering for a class at Darryl Morehouse, and I'm sitting there, I my Walkman on, and I'm playing some disco, whatever, and this dude walks by me and was like, "Yo, are you playing The Grace of God by The Machine?" I'm like, "Yeah. Why?" "Oh, shit. Yo," da da da. And we started talking, chopping it up. he's like, "Yo, yeah, The Garage." And then he started going off about The Gar- Garage. Oh my God, The Garage. But you never been in The Garage? I'm like, "Nah, never." You know, I've heard, I knew about it, but I'd never been. And then I think '87's the year it closed.

Jay Ray: 87 it closed

John Crooms: was the year, you know, that was my freshman year, so of course I wasn't, you know, I wasn't gonna drive up to New York to go...

But

Jay Ray: Right

John Crooms: a- supposedly, a couple of people made it to the closing. But so, but hearing that, so that stuck in my, you know, but, but that, the influence of that place, you

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm

John Crooms: I heard, I heard a whisper, and then for many, you know, s- that place has been, you know, I guess it's like, uh, um, hearing about, uh, Timbuktu for the

Jay Ray: Yeah.

John Crooms: you

Sir Daniel: Yeah

John Crooms: the secret, now we're gonna get in, and

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: blah. So I'm like, "Oh, okay." You know, cool. I, um, I remember when my mom, my mom was the one who told me about Sylvester

Jay Ray: Get it, mom. Yes

John Crooms: like, as in, like, we were watching Soul Train or, or, or, one of them shows back then, um, uh, uh, uh, the Midnight Special, whatever. Sylvester comes on and my mom just like... And I'm, I'm watching and, and she's like, "Oh. Oh, that's Sylvester. That's the man that dresses up like a woman and, and that's how he sings."

"Oh, okay." And my head didn't explode.

Jay Ray: Yes.

John Crooms: didn't stop, you know. was like, "Oh, okay. Oh, that's Sylvester." So later on in life, you know, you hearing Sylvester records, you know, oh, that's Sylvester, yeah. And then, like, when Sylvester passed away, was it '88, '89? And I think somebody... Somehow I got a, I got a tape from, from WBLS.

Someone, someone... And I mean, you know, someone made a copy. Like, cool, I'm listening to it, and it had this whole Sylves- you know, this little Sylvester tribute. And I was like, "Oh, there's a tribute to Sylvester? Yeah, I heard he died." And then it's like, "Oh, okay," you know? And it... But again, like I

Jay Ray: May

John Crooms: be like little things that you-

Jay Ray: but g- I, just real quick, John,

what I love about those stories is that tho- all of those little things are so deep in you and inform how you move in the world, how you take pictures of all of us. And because I think the, the thing that's beautiful about what I see in what you do is it's more beautiful than the exper- sometimes we're seeing it one way, but when you look at it, it's like, "Oh, that was way more beautiful than I remember it being." And that's because it's coming from your lens, and that's because it's coming from all of those lessons that are inside of you that were these little seeds that were being planted telling you that people are people,

Sir Daniel: Yep

Jay Ray: the world is this diverse and interesting place that you can experience as well. you're showing us what's possible

John Crooms: And also, being respectful.

Jay Ray: Yes

John Crooms: where, where, you know, I, trying to be respectful of the spaces that I'm in. Um, you know, and so just like what King saying, I shot all s- all sorts of people. I've been in all sorts of events and venues and everything. So, you know, mindful and spe- you know, if I'm shooting something, you know, in the LGBT community, for example, like, you know, I understand everybody ain't gonna love the flash.

Everybody ain't trying to be seen, so I gots, I gots to

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: around that, you know? And but again, and it, and it's the same way even with even shooting something like a funk jazz or something like that, you know? Um, people like, "Well, how come it's so easy?" I'm like, " 'Cause I shoot my friends."

Jay Ray: Hmm

John Crooms: So I'll shoot all the people I know and then, and how I get everybody is like, if, if all my friends is getting all the attention, you know, and, and if you looking, quote, unquote, "cute," fly, whatever, and you got this outfit on, and, you know, how come I ain't paying attention to you?

You, well, you need to jump in front of the camera then.

And then, you know, and then I that, that, you know, and again, I'm still respectful. I'm not demanding. I'm not gonna come up to you,

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: take this picture," you know? Like, "Come take a shot," you know? "No? Okay, bye." You know, then text you five years later, "Hey, I'm not in the history book."

You know. Right,

Sir Daniel: See? See?

John Crooms: right.

[00:34:23] Hip-Hop's Fashion & Fetish Crossover

Sir Daniel: You gotta be, you gotta be, you gotta have boldness. And, and I think one last thing that I, I almost forgot how you were able to navigate these different spaces and the types of music, you know, pl- music that would be played at The Garage.

From what I understand, in the hip hop community, there were plenty of people who were participating in hip hop who were hip hop stars that would go to The Garage as well. Jay Ray and,

John Crooms: Yeah

Sir Daniel: and I have ha- had this numerous conversations about specifically there was a time in rap music and hip hop where a lot of the, the acts dressed in full kink and fetish gear.

And I

John Crooms: the

Jay Ray: Flash was running around looking right, looking

Sir Daniel: I always found that so interesting

John Crooms: but, but, but you gotta, but you, but you have to remember also as well, their inspirations was Earth, Wind & Fire, uh, P-Funk, Sly Stone. You know, I mean, look at Prince, same thing, you know.

Jay Ray: Yeah.

John Crooms: know, Pr-

Sir Daniel: Rick James

John Crooms: so it's just, so it's just, like, you know, were dressing like the stars that they, that they wanted to be like.

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

John Crooms: and yeah, and yeah, there's this whole period. That, that early years of hip-hop that, like, that from Rapper's Delight from '79

Jay Ray: Crossover

John Crooms: '82, '83, yeah, there was, there was like, there was a lot of blurred lines and stuff. I mean, 'cause Rapper's Delight was a disco record.

Jay Ray: Yes.

Sir Daniel: Full out.

John Crooms: disco record.

Sir Daniel: Full out disco record, yep

John Crooms: so you, so you had this time where, where the, the lines are kind of... So, you, you know, I would jokingly tell people, would tell folks that, "Name me five hip-hop records that ain't, that ain't rap records." And then people get stumped. They're, "Huh? What? What?" And I'm

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: um, Town and Country's Heartbeat,

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

John Crooms: I, we can go to Lisa Lisa and Cult Jam, I

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: You Home. Uh, uh, uh, Outstand-, um, yeah, Outstanding by The

Jay Ray: That's got bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Crooms: yeah, I said... But you get what I'm saying? It's just

Jay Ray: Yes, these are hip hop records, but they're not rap records. Yes

John Crooms: so, so everybody wasn't, everybody wasn't spitting rhymes and stuff like that. And

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: even, and even, and, and if you look at the rhymes itself, like, you know, the stuff that them cats was doing back, you know, back in the day compared to what, what's, what it ha- what it has evolved into now,

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

John Crooms: you know, it's definitely a night and day thing.

Jay Ray: absolutely

John Crooms: it's just like, I mean like, this gen- well, even this generation of rap stars, you know, they, they're dressing like, quote-unquote, "rock stars."

Jay Ray: Yeah.

John Crooms: You know? The, you know, a lot of them kids will be, "Oh, I'm a rock star." They wouldn't say they a rapper. "I'm a rock star. I'm a rock star." So they wearing the skinny jeans and the, the kinda flamboyant, you know, outfits and everything.

So it's kinda like kinda coming back if you, if we, if we think about

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: know, 'cause yeah, people will be like, "Yeah, well they, they dressing kinda, you know, funny looking. Look at," you know,

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

John Crooms: Dre in the sequin suits. Look at so and so and them." But then we look at, uh, Future or Lil Yachty, and you're like, "Well, well he got pink hair and, and

Jay Ray: Yeah, yeah

John Crooms: and this, that and the third."

So yeah, you know, it's, it's kinda coming around full circle and everything. You know, this is what you believe, this... You're seeing, you're, you're dressing like who you believe the celebrity is, and, and you're trying to emulate the celebrity. It wasn't until Run DMC showed up with the, the, the, the Adid-

Jay Ray: Yeah, the leather jackets and the Adidas

John Crooms: the Lee...

Yeah, yeah. Where people are like, "Oh, they dress like us." You know, "They, they dress like somebody from around the way. I can, I can deal with that." So yeah. I mean, but Flash and all them dudes, yeah. Flash, uh, uh, Grandmaster, all them cats was kinda like, you know, yeah. It was little, little Labellish, I guess,

Jay Ray: little labellish.

Sir Daniel: Totally label-less

John Crooms: Mm, yeah.

Jay Ray: um,

John Crooms: know, you know, you know, Afro futurism, Black,

Jay Ray: yes

John Crooms: radical, yeah, you know.

Sir Daniel: All of that

[00:38:14] Quick Transition

[00:38:16] A Great Day in Atlanta

Jay Ray: I don't want us to get out of here without us talking about the legacy of A Great Day in Atlanta.

Sir Daniel: Oh, yeah

Jay Ray: Um, I al- that is one of the things I so wish that I made it out to at some point, 'cause you were, you were, you done so many of them. What is the, um, future of that project?

Will there be more? Like, what are your... Tell us a bit about that history, and then what's the future of that?

John Crooms: um, that was, uh... Okay, well Jazzy Jeff came and played in Atlanta, and I think it was like the fir- one of the first times he made an appearance, uh, with this current gen- well, you know, with our, our generation of folks. And at the end I got a few of the DJs together, 'cause every DJ in the city of Atlanta showed up for that thing.

Jay Ray: Of course.

Sir Daniel: course

John Crooms: you know, V-103, Hot 97, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, the club DJs, the, the, the mix, ev- everybody showed up. And, um, you know, and at the end I tried to get everybody together for a bit and I said, "Oh, that'd be dope dude, if I can get everybody together and do a big p- you know, picture and all that." And so me and, um, I'm walking through Little Five Points and run into Kimi Bennings, and we were talking about it and I think she, she wanted to do something similar with the spoken word artists.

So I said, "Well, maybe get everybody together." And we both kind of, you know, as, w- with the joke is I tell this is like the old Reese's Peanut Butter commercials. Like, "Oh, your peanut butter's in my chocolate. My chocolate's in your peanut butter." And, you know, so we tried it. So we did the first one. Nobody showed up. and, you know, you know, 'cause we tried to put the word out, but no one showed up to the first, the very first time we tried it. I was like, "All right, we'll give it a couple of weeks. We'll try it again." And then g- and now granted also what you get, have to remember, this is all pre-social media.

Jay Ray: Right.

Sir Daniel: Absolutely

Jay Ray: you know?

John Crooms: people, tw- 2003, so

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: yeah, you may or may not check an email, you may or may not make a call, and you may, you know, or you might have got the call but y- you blew it off

Jay Ray: Right

John Crooms: of whatever. So yeah, I mean, yeah, if I had Facebook or Myspace back when I did the first one, yeah, it'd, it'd been some epic s**t. But you know. Um, so, um, so we did the fir- we did it and like I said, we, we, we got all the poets, artists, and mad men that we can, that we can gather. Um, a lot of people did miss it, you know.

And of course once they found out that they missed it, "Oh man, you gonna do it again? You

Jay Ray: Yeah.

John Crooms: gotta shoot it," you know. And it was a, it's a, it was a pain in the butt to get all these people

Jay Ray: It's a lot of corralling, I imagine.

John Crooms: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you g- yeah, yeah, where you're herding cats. It's just like, you know, come on. So yeah, so we did that.

And then, um- And then was it, so 10 years after that, so 10 years later, so 2000, 2013 we got everybody, tried to get right back together and got the folks who missed it the first time, but then some other people missed the second. Yeah, y- y- y- it's, it's... And then, um, MTV did one and, you know, of course they had all the celebs, your OutKasts, your Lil Jon and Nisa, all the, all those types of dudes.

Jay Ray: Oh, I remember that shoot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm

John Crooms: Right. And I even told somebody, I was like, "Well, you know, this is MTV. If I had MTV behind me, we would've had this." But, you know, I didn't have MTV, you know, it's just me. You know, this, this is us organically, you know, the underground. So, and, and, and I guess on the plus side, we had some people, in 2003 were not quite there, but now, you know, at two, 2013, they, they blew up and evolved, like DJ Drama, who, uh, does gang- who did the Gangsta Grillz mixtapes and all them. Yeah, he was there. Uh, JC, some of the hip hop cats that blew. And then, um, was Deanna Paris in that one? But I mean, th- you know, some people all sides, they, you know, you know, who kind of, who kind of blew up. So then we did another one for 2023, and so I guess every 10 years we're gonna keep trying until, you know... Of course the sad thing about it is yeah, you know, w- we, we've lost, we

Sir Daniel: Lost some people. Yeah

John Crooms: You know?

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: So, um, that's, that's, that's the, that's the hard part. But then, you know, again, as long as, but as people keep showing up, we going to try to keep doing it. So, um, so what's this? 26. So next one is 2033, I think.

[00:42:52] Atlanta's Music Infrastructure

Jay Ray: Yeah. man

John Crooms: Yeah, we, we, yeah, we, we cho- we chose Woodruff Library because, uh, WCLK is right there, and WCLK being one of the radio stations that supported a lot of the progressive stuff, you know, a lot of progressive things here in Atlanta. Well, you know, the, the interesting thing about Atlanta, I always tell folks, is that, um, for a smaller city or a secondary market city I think you might call us, um, always had an infrastructure here that a lot of places don't have. So what I mean by the infrastructure, we, we had Radio, WCLK, WRFG, um, Album 88, Georgia State, Georgia Tech. So we always had little outlets where you can, where, where independent was being played.

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

John Crooms: so after that then we, we had events. So we had FunkJazz Kafé Um, we, we, we, we got, uh, what, Kickin' Up Dust and, and Second Saturday and, and, you know, other things where people could come and experience and enjoy the music and enjoy the culture. Um, we had venues, Yin Yang Apache, Club Kaya, uh, Cotton Club Variety Playhouse, the f- you know, those types of spots. Um, and then the, the major thing that we had in Atlanta that a lot of pl- lot of other smaller cities and other place- spots didn't have, we had retail. So we had Earwax

Jay Ray: Moods music and

John Crooms: place called the L- we had Mood's Music, the Lion's Den.

Mood's, and Mood's is kinda, like, second generation of this stuff.

Jay Ray: Um

Sir Daniel: Yeah

John Crooms: and, uh, yep. Earwax, uh, Lion's Den, Mood's, uh, Vibes Music & More in Decatur, and Red Beans and Rice Record. Yeah, it, yeah.

Sir Daniel: that. Ooh

John Crooms: And so, right, we had, you know, w- we, we... And then also, even on the, on the quote unquote white side of things, uh, Satellite Records if you're looking for dance stuff, and, Eddie Gourmet's Records who will also, if you're looking for the d- the, the dance stuff as well. So we've had, you know, we, we, and here in Atlanta we've had, like, the infrastructure and everything to, to keep this thing going. And that's why I think we made the city a unique... And then Atlanta is a college town. Atlanta is a Black college town.

Jay Ray: Yes

John Crooms: we, so we got Em- yeah, we have Emory, Georgia Tech, Georgia State, Mercer, all these school.

But, and you know, but then we also have Morehouse, Spelman, Clark Atlanta University, Morris Brown. You know, every year you get 10,000 kids from, from all o- 10,000 Black kids from all over the universe coming in one spot.

Sir Daniel: Yep

John Crooms: and like I s- I was here in, I came down here in '87.

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

John Crooms: '87, which was a, which was a great...

That was, that was, 'cause we were still in the e- the early era of hip hop, go-go, house music. so you get all these kids coming and, and we're all a- and we're all doing, at the social media at that time, the cassette tape.

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

John Crooms: Let me get that. Let me get this. Yo, make a copy of that. Dub that. So like, yeah, Thanksgiving and Christmas all you're doing is going to your boy's room, make, getting a copy of the tape.

So yeah, this is what the cats from Chicago are listening to. This is what the cats from Detroit are into. The cats from, you know, the cats from the Bay Area, the cats from LA, this is what the New York dudes is into, now all the Georgia. And and I think that's what made Atlanta very, you know, us what it is.

Or, or the stuff that we did birthed the Black Hollyhood era, or the, the whole know, the, what gave Atlanta its flavor, you know? We added to, you know, all these kids coming down added to the pot and, and voila. I mean,

Jay Ray: Yeah.

John Crooms: would, would there have been an OutKast if there wasn't, if, if there wasn't an AU Center? Hmm.

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

John Crooms: I don't know. That's a... I'm not saying, I'm not, you know, I'm not knocking OutKast, but I'm just saying we, you know, with, with... before I, even before OutKast, Atlanta had a whole hop thing before them cats

Jay Ray: Yeah.

Sir Daniel: Absolutely

John Crooms: yeah.

Jay Ray: Yeah. Man

John Crooms: It's, it's, it's a, it's a lot, yeah, it's a lot to, it's, it's a lot.

Jay Ray: I just learned a ton about a ton of other record stores that I didn't know about in kind of the first generation, uh, John. So you just gave a bunch of nuggets. Um, but John, thank you, man. Thank you for being you and the work that you do, but thank you for, for, Queue Points, man, for coming by. We really do appreciate it. Um, where can folks connect with you? Let's let them know that before we get out of here

[00:47:31] Where to Find John & Farewell

John Crooms: the easiest way is Facebook, you know, John Crooms. Uh, Instagram, um, jcrooms69. Um,

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

John Crooms: yeah, I think, I think that's

Jay Ray: Okay

John Crooms: Oh, if you're on FetLife, if you're kinky, uh, VirgoFlix, like the sign, uh, V-I-R-G-O F-L-I-X. Um, where else, where else, where else, where else, where

Jay Ray: You still do your blog? You still, you still maintain your blog or did you...

John Crooms: I, I, I haven't d- I g- I got lazy with the blog,

Jay Ray: Okay, that's real

John Crooms: that 'cause I was like, "Damn, it's been 10 years since I touched that thing."

Jay Ray: Okay

John Crooms: I might need to bring it, I, I might need to bring it b- well, 'cause what it was was, like, I, I just put, I, I put it on Facebook.

Jay Ray: Yeah

John Crooms: just, just..." So I mean, I've got some folks, quote-unquote, "trained" that, like, if... Like last night, people like, "Yeah, I'm gonna wake up in the morning and now everyone gonna see my picture."

And lo and behold, there it is, you know?

Jay Ray: We all know I, I live by that. If I knew that John was there, I know that I could go and check.

John Crooms: Blame that, blame that on Wolf Camera, 'cause when Wolf Camera was open and you could shoot,

Sir Daniel: Oh, no

John Crooms: they, they used, they used to process in an hour.

Jay Ray: Wow.

John Crooms: up early in the morning, go drop my film off, get it in an hour, and then also back, y- I don't know if you remember b- y'all might have missed it, but back in the day, I used to give out prints.

Jay Ray: Really?

John Crooms: I used to walk around and I would see, if I saw you at

Jay Ray: If it's

John Crooms: or something, yeah, just give you a print. Yeah

Jay Ray: So there are people walking around Atlanta with a John Crooms print from the man himself. That is

John Crooms: K- Kai, I'll say, has three photo albums full of my pictures

this one kid one day was said, "If you ain't got a stack of pictures from jock rooms, you ain't doing nothing in the city of Atlanta."

Jay Ray: No shade. I was looking through my pictures. I was like, "I'm glad I got John Crooms pictures."

John Crooms: Yeah, so I mean, when people, people said that, I was like, "Damn." He was like, "Yeah, if you ain't got a stack of pictures from John, you ain't doing shit in Atlanta." I was like, "Wow, that's a..." Um,

Sir Daniel: John Crooms is right up there with, um, with Harry's. And if you from Atlanta, you, you know you know about Harry's. So if you got, you got your Harry's photos, but then you got John Crooms photos, and those are just as important to Atlanta history

John Crooms: I

Jay Ray: Oh.

John Crooms: a, this, this one young lady, she's... I think her whole, she said her whole refrigerator or something was covered, and some dude was trying to holler. He came by her house. He was like, "Damn, you all these, you got all these pictures of you, so we..." Yeah, I never seen somebody with so many pictures of themselves.

And she was like, "Yeah, well hey, I be, I be out and, you know, and the, the..." I, people used to call me, "Hey, I'm gonna be at Funk Jazz. I'm gonna be dre- dressed in this outfit. You better come

Jay Ray: Look what

John Crooms: picture." And I'm like, "Okay, okay,

Sir Daniel: Wow.

John Crooms: Yeah, you

Sir Daniel: I got my new Moshood outfit. I need you to come capture me in this

John Crooms: Right, got my hair, my hair gonna be laid and this gonna be...

And I need you, you better make sure

Jay Ray: Yo, John, man, we,

Sir Daniel: This has been fun

Jay Ray: ap- this has been so much fun. We appreciate you. Thank you for your work, and thanks to everybody tuning in to Queue Points. Um, if you can see our faces and hear our voices, make sure that you subscribe wherever you are. Follow us on social media. Visit our website at queuepoints.com. Shop our store at store.queuepoints.com. And, uh, make sure that you follow John Crooms, because one, first of all, if you've been in Atlanta and you've been to an event where John Crooms is at, you might have a John Crooms picture out there, and you need to put it on your refrigerator like that young lady that got John Crooms pictures on the refrigerator, all right? Um, but thank y'all so much for, for being here with us. John, thank you so much for being here with us as well. We love y'all.

John Crooms: a problem. Appreciate y'all. Uh, I'd love to come back if you

Jay Ray: Yeah.

John Crooms: maybe two years from now, you know?

Jay Ray: Yeah.

Sir Daniel: For a part two

Jay Ray: Right

John Crooms: Sir Daniel, I don't, I, I haven't been to JB's in a minute, so... And I, where, where, where are you playing at, sir? Or are you, are you just chilling?

Sir Daniel: Uh, um, that's a good question. I, I am wherever people wanna see me. Um, you can see me on my YouTube channel always. Um, and that's at, uh, YouTube at DJ Sir Daniel. And, um, so yeah, but we talking about you today. And listen, like I say at, at the end of every episode, in this life you have a choice. You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play.

I am DJ Sir Daniel

Jay Ray: My name is Jay Ray, y'all, and that is the amazing, the illustrious, uh, uh, uh, archivist, cultural

Sir Daniel: Historian

Jay Ray: historian, photographer John Crooms.

John Crooms: Keep this n***a alive, sorry.

Sir Daniel: That's right. And this is Queue Points podcast, dropping the needle on Black music history. We will see you on the next go-round. And in three, two, one, pose

Jay Ray: Peace, y'all.

[00:52:16] Outro Theme