Conversations on Wealth, Hip Hop, and the "Black Trump" Era

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Conversations on Wealth, Hip Hop, and the "Black Trump" Era

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Intro Theme

Welcome to the Show and Acknowledging the state of America

Sir Daniel: Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast. I'm DJ Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray: and my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III, and Sir Daniel, what's interesting about our leadership is they have, it's a very interesting history between how they have been represented in Black music and Black culture over the years, and it's time we talk about it.

Sir Daniel: And Jay Ray, we just have to hold that.

We have to hold that as a community. And this episode, we're gonna unpack. How, what we've done [00:01:00] to kind of, um, incubate this person and incubate the clout that he has, as it were, uh, with respect to, um, once, um, New York City. To now a whole country and all across the world. So that's what we're gonna do in this episode.

Remembering the 80s Wealth Obsession

Sir Daniel: And it just has to be said that growing up in the eighties, we, um, wealth was something that became, um, definitely the top of every, on the top of everybody's mind. They call the eighties, the ME era, because the eighties was about. Accumulation was about, was about greed. Everything we saw on in our media reflected that from our television shows like Dynasty, the Colbys, Falcon Crest, um, Dallas, to um, to the television [00:02:00] shows like Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous, where wealth was just put in our faces and say, see this, see this?

This is what you're, this is what. We have and you don't. There's a, a, a con, a very concrete line, a gold line, if you will, that was drawn in the sand of the world, of the haves and the have nots. And so that was pushed in our faces. And when you were, um, of a victim or a c. Or a person living under the circumstances of Reaganomics like we were, if you were living in cities that were deeply impacted by the, the quote unquote trickle down effect of the e economics was supposed to have and the crack era.

Um, with places like New York City and beyond every major city that had a lot of Black people in it, you saw the direct effects. Or you saw the, the difference of the haves and the have nots. It was so plain to go from your [00:03:00] neighborhood, um, to, in just one train ride to see how the other half was living and that they were living in opulence and growing up in the eighties.

Discussing the New York, the Exonerated Five, and the term "Wilding"

Sir Daniel: Jay Ray, I'll never forget, there was, there was a, a very distinct moment in time where bling bling, being a young Black man was literally. Um, personified by, um, a term called wilding.

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm. Okay.

Sir Daniel: um, yes, uh, we were reduced to a term called wilding, and that if you were a young Black man in, in this particular era, space and time of an incident that really had the city in a choke hole, you were placed under a microscope.

No matter what your values were, no matter what kind of upbringing you had, you were placed under a microscope and grouped because of an, uh, a quote unquote event that happened in Central Park in New York City in [00:04:00] 19 89, 19 89, um, where a woman was attacked and viciously raped, and, um. The whole city was just under, under siege by this whole p The police were looking for these, you know, these boogeymen that were, uh, that were Black young men and trying and rounding them up and arresting five young men and one at one point.

And the, not only the trial of by jury took place, but the trial of, um. Of the public took place. Even, even amongst us, Jay Ray and the Black community, I remember distinctly hearing, oh, these young people from other Black people. It's these, these young people in the music that they're listening to.

Jay Ray: Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel: you know, that's why we don't want you associating with those kinds of young Black people.

We don't. You don't need to listen to that [00:05:00] kind of music because. As Black people trying to live in this country and um, and operating under respectability politics. Those are the things you heard growing up about those five young men. And fast forward to modern times, we know Jay Ray, that that was not the truth.

That was not the whole truth and that the reason why. Someone like a Donald Trump can become, can, has such a big platform and becomes the personification of wealth and access and power is because as, as Black people in this country, we have always been made to feel like. White is right. The white man's ice is always colder.

Everything that they have is nicer because under [00:06:00] the conditions that we were put under, it absolutely was. It was. Absolutely. So those kinds of things have a deep psychological effect on generations of us. I mean, to the way we, again, respectability, um, politics to the way we, you know, you've made it, if you've accumulated this, if you've gotten this car, you've gotten this house, you've got these, um, appliances.

In your kitchen, you have made it or you have made it because you have reached some type of assimilation to white America. Because white America becomes the standard or had become the standard.

Jay Ray: Yeah, and it's interesting because we know this as growing up in the 1980s, we are watching. These cultural shifts take place, right? So you have the Reaganomics, you have the crack era, you have HIV, you have all of these [00:07:00] things that are like, uh, uh, mass incarceration, right? That are decimating our communities.

And at the same time, you have the rise of. Music that is lifting Black folks from these very same communities out of those communities and ascending them closer to that, that, that model that you're talking about. Right. So it is allowing Black folks, uh, we're talking about hip hop specifically. One, it's giving young Black people, particularly young Black men and young Black women, visibility, it's, uh, giving them access to money.

More money than many of them have ever had, right? And it is allowing these folks to ascend and, uh, in some cases, uh, assimilate right into this world that you have laid out for us. And so these things are all happening at the same time, [00:08:00] but. And not even, but by 1989, um, Donald Trump has moved from a local kind of tri-state figure, like a New York figure that people knew 'cause tr Trump Tower was built and existed from the early 1980s.

Right? So Trump's name was, uh, very synonymous with real estate. Which has a racist history. Right. So y'all can look up that history. I think that's really important. Right.

Sir Daniel: his

Jay Ray: Specifically his family. Exactly. So that is a very important history. Right. So that's already coming.

Juxtaposing the May 1, 1989 Trump Ad to Mentions in Music

Jay Ray: Um, and by 1989. Trump, the, the, the character, I'm not talking about the person at this point, but kind of the character of, or the image of what that name represents, becomes its own thing.

But I wanna bring it back [00:09:00] to, um, uh, uh, May 1st, 1989. 'cause I think this is a, a really important moment because there are two things happening at the exact same time. So May 1st, 1989. Donald Trump in a signed ad, took out, um, ads in four major New York newspapers. So the New York Times. The New York Times, the New York Daily News, the New York Post, and the New York News Day.

Not as familiar with that one. I'm not sure if that the New York News Day is still around. But anyway, this ad, uh, the headline of the ad was. Bring back the death penalty, bring back our police, and the, the, there was a letter, um, signed by Donald, uh, by Donald Trump, which was before the trial. Of the [00:10:00] young men, the exonerated five, right?

So I'm gonna name their names 'cause I think that's really important. Antra McCray, Kevin Richardson, Yusef Salam, Raymond Santana, Corey Wise, right? Let's name these brothers names. And this is before the trial. So these, of course, these young men end up being convicted. We know now, um, that that was a lie.

They were convicted incorrectly and they are considered the exonerated five. But on May 1st, 1989, this, this ad comes out, we'll make sure that we, we link it in the description. Um, and that's in May 1st of 89, at the same time in 1989, right? Donald Trump's name starts to show up in music, right? Um, because by then.

This, this, this, this, this figure has now started to transition to a symbol, a unit of measure in many ways [00:11:00] of, of, of, of opulence, of money, of all of those things. And so. In 1989, we have, uh, the Fat Boys, uh, mentioning Donald Trump. Uh, actually an early mention of Donald Trump as a unit of measure. We have, um, the Beastie Boys on their Paul's boutique album is, uh, has created a fictional character called, uh, Donald Tramp, who is, um, a person experiencing homelessness.

And they're kind of telling this story, but it's hearkening back to Donald Trump.

Discussing "Donald Trump (Black Version)" by The Time

Jay Ray: Um, and at the same time, prince is writing a record. So the time is, uh, planning to release a record that never comes out. It's called Corporate World, And Prince writes this song called "Donald Trump (Black Version)". "Donald Trump (Black Version)" written by Prince, you know, uh, uh, Morris [00:12:00] Day is singing How, uh. This is a man that fulfills your every dream, fulfills your every wish. It is a nineties love affair. You know, like so equating this idea of this extreme wealth, this ability to like give a, a woman in this instance, everything she wishes, but representing this idea of Donald Trump as like the way to do that, like being that.

Rich. Right. You said something earlier that I wanted to call back to about, uh, Donald Trump, uh, that relates to "Donald Trump (Black Version)". You mentioned Dynasty, and I think what's really interesting is when you listen to "Donald Trump (Black Version)", right? The first thing that popped into my head was like this vision of like dynasty.

And Dallas, like all of these very opulent, uh, uh, TV shows that we used to watch on television. So you got the, the [00:13:00] saxophones solos and all of that juxtaposed to this, uh, uh, idea of like this extreme wealth capitalism. Uh, the ability for a man to give a woman everything is what a woman really wants, right?

And I think. The setting of that up sets us up for where we are today. And um, I just thought it was, uh, an interesting moment in time, uh, that Prince would write this song. It ended up coming out on pandemonium, the Times 1990 album. 'cause corporate world never, uh, came out. So I think this is one of three songs that got saved from that recording project.

Um, but yeah. Prince wrote a song, uh, called "Donald Trump (Black Version)" that Morris Day sings.

Sir Daniel: So I wanna say this, I don't want anyone listening to [00:14:00] this episode to think that Jay Ray and I, sir Daniel, are laying this country's problems on the feet of Black people.

Jay Ray: No,

Sir Daniel: We are not saying that at all. What we are saying is that what art does, art does reflect. Um, people's reality art actually reflects what you take in on a daily basis, what you, you know, the, um, there's this, um, saying in the Bible what you become, what you behold, and a lot of us. We're beholding to what the media was presenting to us as wealth,

Jay Ray: Yeah.

Sir Daniel: as opulence, as the barometer of what success in this country looks like. I cannot, um, I cannot say how groundbreaking and how much foresight. [00:15:00] The documentary Paris's Burning has, because it, Paris's Burning does such an excellent job. It's not just about ballroom culture.

It's really a fantastic look at New York in the eighties. But what also becomes a more, um, global problem of how the, um, the perception of wealth can, um, lead to people doing. Anything to attain that wealth because you, you know, you covet what you see on a daily basis, and if I'm seeing in magazines and television shows that my life isn't worth anything unless I become that.

Unless I have possessions that equal to or are greater to than this man right here. Then you start to build this psychological, the story in your head that either. My life is [00:16:00] worthless and I'm just going to live it like it's worthless and allow, you know, whatever circumstances, whatever things to take me out of my head to, to, to numb the pain of that worthlessness.

I'm gonna do that, or I am going to study and personify the things that. Appear to me to get you to that place. And so I feel Jay Ray, what we saw, you know, especially in, uh, you know, New York is the epicenter. That's why we keep talking about it. New York was the epicenter of everything at that time, as, as it pertained to hip hop culture and what was becoming, what would become this global phenomenon of hip hop and a lot of New Yorkers, um, tended to.

Mob Bosses, Dons, and the Rise of Hip Hop "Mafioso"

Sir Daniel: This was, but this was also a time in. Crime leaders, crime mo, crime bosses were super [00:17:00] popular as well, even among Black people. And we know it is well documented that the relationship between Black people and Italians back in New York in the eighties and the mid to late eighties was not the best relationship.

However, there was still a romanticizing of mob bosses with Italian names. And, you know, all the, the, the, the movies that were coming out like Your Scarfaces, even though he was Cuban Scarface and the the Godfather. Oh my God. So we, so Black people, we started to, um, assimilate or have this, or romanticize these mafioso types.

Jay Ray: Yes.

Sir Daniel: That starts popping up in our music in the early nineties as well. A lot of your favorite MCs were becoming Dons Mafiosos, um, crime bosses, boss of the bosses, you know, all types of labels to personify this, this, um, [00:18:00] this sophisticated mob. The sophisticated gentleman, but, but was also running things in the streets.

And so if you. And so the closest thing that, um, a lot of us had to, that was when, you know, when, um, a lot of people were, um, in the drug gang in the, in the, in the crack game. And that's when you had a lot of crack kingpins come up and would liken themselves to the Italian crime mob bosses. And so those things start to show up in the music because.

Of course you reflect what you, you talk about what you see every day or who's and who's running the streets back then, you wanna be like that dude. The rappers, again, we gotta say, we've said this before on this podcast, the rappers really weren't the popular dudes yet.

Jay Ray: No.

Sir Daniel: It was definitely the crime. It was definitely the crack king, the crack king pin, the local drug dealer that had the, you know, that had the really fat, [00:19:00] um, tricked out Benzs, the eight 50 with the, with the kit, the knocking system, the, the, you know, the goal.

Medallions, the Fresh Dapper Dan outfit, that's who was running things, that's who was paying for the parties. That's who really had the, um, the neighborhood on lock about what, what, um, power looked like because they had money. And money in this country equates to power. And so we've always been chasing that J rate in some form or another.

But now here we have this art form that is going from. Party rocking MCs to now telling stories about the streets and telling stories about who's running the streets and, and now dawning this, this, um, these personas of these mob bosses and people running the street, but who. Is the number one dude who's not, who stays clean.

He's not really, [00:20:00] back then we didn't really link him to any, any, any, um, wrongdoing. But he's still moving like that. He's still got the, the clout, he's got his name on in gold on a building. In New York, and if you grew up watching Richie Rich or Ironman, you know, Tony Starks had his name on the building.

Uh, those things mean something to you. And it's funny, I bring up Tony Starks because in the, in the early nineties we see the rise of a, uh, rap conglomeration by the name of Wu-Tang claim. And one of the rising stars out of the Wu-Tang clan just so happens to be Ghostface killer and, um, at his time, partner, uh, Raekwon.

Jay Ray: Rayquan. Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel: And one of the personas that Ghostface Killer, um, would take on is that of Tony Starks. And so you start to see, again, this love and adoration for [00:21:00] these figures in New York City because of the perceived. Power that they wielded because of the perceived amount of money that they, um, had. And so what you are going to see in some of the music is that they're gonna start name checking and making references to people that they feel personify wealth, power, and access.

Discussing "Incarcerated Scarfaces" by Raekwon f/ Ghostface

Sir Daniel: I still have that song on my phone. I listen to it on a regular, it's, it's still Knocks "Incarcerated Scarfaces". Ghostface, excuse me, Raekwon featuring Ghostface. Um, there was, who is the Black Trump?

Jay Ray: Can we, I, I'm so glad you mentioned this idea of the Black Trump, because I think that is hearkens back to the conversation that you were having earlier about, um, the othering, like Black folks being made to [00:22:00] feel like we have to be a Black version of this other thing that is outside of our culture.

And that's one of the consistent things that showed up in hip hop in the, in the, in the nineties and in the early two thousands, um, is this idea that. Uh, Black folks were aspiring to be the Black version of this very rich, of this rich white thing, right? And you becoming the Black version of that meant that your status within community was higher than everyone else's, right?

And so that idea of the Black Trump. Permeates, right? It's not something that you could just say, and it's flippant. It's something that people start to internalize and believe, and that is the kind of cultural cachet that travels [00:23:00] outside of community and gives a a and gives rise to a person like Donald Trump having even more power.

Right. So there is a way, uh, that, that all of this, and we're talking about this here in the music specifically Black music here, but this is consistent, I think, across culture where Donald Trump becomes, uh, and the character of Trump, and oftentimes the person Trump 'cause showing up. But it's what Trump represents.

That becomes glorified. And um, I think that is a thing that stays with people and that's why, going back to your earlier point, being careful about what we say, how we say it.

Platforming Celebrities Carefully

Jay Ray: And I also think we are in this time where we do have to take a step back and start reflecting on, um. [00:24:00] The ti the, the way we platform people, right?

I don't know that it, it needs to, no, it needs to be all the time. Like we definitely have to critically think about these things. Like I was about to say, it doesn't have to be all the time, unless you're making a party record and you're making a party record, but being critical, right? There will be folks that'll say, oh my God, y'all being so serious.

Y'all being so serious. But look what happened as a result of us not being serious.

Sir Daniel: India Arie is on tour right now. She's, um, performing and she has this thing where in the back.

On the back of her, uh, on the screen, she has it on the screen. The power about the power of the tongue and how we have to be so careful about what we speak life into. As used to your point, look at who we are platforming now, or who we are making our stars. Who are we making celebrities? We're turning people that don't [00:25:00] necessarily have any.

A talent that they can point to or uh, um, or that are. Have any kind of, um, uh, a, a product that we can point to and say, oh, I need to have this, this is going to change my life. No, we are making, we basically are giving a platform to people who, uh. Um, for whatever reason, we want to exploit their circumstances, exploit, exploit their, um, their lack of self-awareness or capabilities or their, you know, or the, the lack of capabilities that they have.

Uh, we're exploiting those things, but we're also at the same time making them, um, making them celebrities and giving and saying, you know. Painting them as the underdog because we love that story here in America of the underdog who fights his way to the top. But a lot of times that's not the case. We've started out in that, um, making him a [00:26:00] celebrity by not only speaking his name on our records, but he starts to show up in our videos.

He starts to show up in our music videos. He starts to show with, which then tells people, oh, this guy is a character, and then that leads him to cameos on television shows.

Jay Ray: Narratives are really important. Y'all like, this is all, this all becomes part of the way that people's ideas shift or, um, begin to accept things because we start to accept things as like a normal way of things being and where. We have to be able to take that step back and be like, nah, none of the, like, this isn't normal.

You know what I'm saying?

Sir Daniel: He showed up in our living rooms on a weekly basis on a television show, and so therefore it made him, it endured, it endeared him to certain people and it, it made him, again, the [00:27:00] barometer of what we should strive to be in, who we should try to be in this country. And then we see our own people.

Mimicking him. You know,

Jay Ray: right after that. Right? Like work for Diddy

Sir Daniel: for Diddy, making the band, all of those things to show how bad you want to become and to personify this person because, um, the media has said, this is what you need to be, this is who you need to emulate.

Jay Ray: Yep. I, I want to, uh. There are, and we'll, we'll, we'll link in the description because there are, there's a lot of history as it relates to, um, referencing of, of, of Trump in hip hop, um, in Black music overall, but particularly in hip hop. Uh, but I do wanna, uh, send some love because it, it wasn't all. It wasn't all flattering, right?

Or it wasn't all praise. I just want to give some love to the coop boots Riley, Pam, the [00:28:00] NCTs. They were very clear about, um, the way they referred to when Trump was mentioned in a song. It was often mentioned in a way that was, um, critical, um, of the history of what was happening and, and, and, and keeping that.

In mind, so I just wanted to let folks know that there are other examples, and I'm just pulling that one up as an as, as a, as an example, but. We will include, um, some links. Um, okay. Player has a great, uh, article, um, about this. There's a couple good articles out there from like 2016 to 2018 about Trump and hip hop, but we definitely wanted to lift this up because we're in this moment in time where if you're asking the question, how did we get here? What we are lifting up in this show is here is one of the ways, uh, uh, that we got here and, and, and hip [00:29:00] hop and, and our music and the, and the way that it, these stories have come to us is one of those things, and we just have to hold to Sir Daniel's earlier point. We have to hold that. And learn from it and figure out how to move differently.

I think in the future, and if there's one thing I wanna leave with folks, uh, before we get outta here today is, um, it's okay to be critical of what you take in. Right. It is not, and it's okay to be critical of, of what's being given to you. So if you're thinking about your local radio stations and you have a problem with what's on that station, you need to call that station and be like, no, kids are listening at this hour.

This is playing and this is unacceptable music. You could say that. You know what I mean? And you can organize your community to respond to things like that, that we are deeming that, Hey, this is unacceptable. Don't play it. Um. Because [00:30:00] we do need to be mindful of, uh, how these things start to show up in our art because they create narratives and people make choices based on the narratives that they get.

And um, I was surprised, honestly, Ian, when we began to research for this show. I'm glad we had the idea, but when we started to dig into it, I'm like, oh, crap. Yeah. The idea of the Black Trump is a very. Clear idea that's been around for a minute.

Sir Daniel: Absolutely. And it was done on purpose and yeah.

The Importance of Controlling Your Personal Algorithm & Closing Thoughts

Sir Daniel: I, I, I just p wanna piggyback and what everything you said about what we wanna uplift in this moment in this episode is to just be mindful of what you take in. Just be mindful of. What you do have control of is how you set your algorithm. And the algorithm is not just about the [00:31:00] app that's on your phone, but the algorithm of your mind, of your brain.

Because what we also do is we are allowing, um, a lot of how terrible everything is, allowing that to. Set the algorithm in our brain because what we're saying is that, well, if everything's terrible, I'm just gonna attract more terrible things because that's the way your mind is operating and you are, you don't know it, but you're drawing those things to you.

And so we all deserve a reset. We all deserve a reset in this moment. Um, and, and the way that you start off a reset is that you have to acknowledge, okay. I've been taking in some bull. I've been really, you know, and it's been for a very long time, I've helped perpetuate it. I need to stop. And again, it starts with what you behold, you, behold you become changed by what you behold.

I, I really do believe [00:32:00] that. And so we're not preaching here, but we just wanna make you aware of what's happening. And hopefully this is a light bulb moment. And just be real selective of who you let in and out of your minds at this mo in this moment of time.

Jay Ray: yo, uh, uh, second,

uh, definitely

second that. Sir Daniel,

Thank you so much for y'all tuning into today's episode of Queue Points. If you can, uh, see our faces and hear our voices, uh, subscribe wherever you are.

If you enjoy Queue Points, uh, chances are folks in your lives may enjoy Queue Points too. So go ahead and share the show with them, friends, family, colleagues, make sure that they know what we are doing over here. Um, visit our website@queuepoints.com. Um, there you can watch our entire archive of episodes. There are tons of stuff that.

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Sir Daniel: Absolutely. And like I always say in this life, you have a choice. You can either pick up the needle or you could let the record play. I am DJ Sir Daniel,

Jay Ray: my name is Jay Ray.

Sir Daniel: and this has been Queue Points podcast, dropping the needle on Black music history. We will see you on the next go round because we are the best. There's nothing, there's, we are the absolute best.

Nothing like us.

Jay Ray: Peace, y'all. Bar none.

Sir Daniel: Bar none. We're the best.

Jay Ray: Peace y'all.

Outro Theme

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